Size Difference in Takedowns

[still kicking]

I am wondering what other schools do in terms of pairing people up for exercises that involve takedowns. This might be a good question especially for you judoka -- do you partner up with people of all different sizes generally, or are you paired up by size in class? The reason I am asking, in my school we don't do a lot of throws/takedowns. Some of the blackbelts might do them in tournament sparring (point sparring) when the opportunity presents itself, but not often. The main place it comes up is in one-step sparring. I'm also not sure if everyone's one-step has a takedown as the 3rd defense against each technique, but we do.

What is bugging me is that most of the time I am paired up with the person who is closest to my size, which in height is short, but I am much more sturdy thatn she is. More importantly, she is very timid and fearful of falling, in spite of being 2nd kyu like me, and training for many years (like more than 10). This is incredibly frustrating, because I rather enjoy getting thrown around, and need to be able to practice my takedowns! Often how it goes is that I will do the takedown once (usually we do it on a count, and the other pairs do that one several times before we move on to the next technique). Anyway, typically the first time might be OK, but there is a look of fear, holding back, on my partner's face, and I am informed of any areas that are painful and how that was for her and where I need to be careful. This makes me feel more tense, OK, I don't want to injure anyone, then maybe we will do it a second time, then she will say to just go to the setup because she doesn't want to fall any more.

The thing is, sometimes I am paired up with one of the black belts who is bigger than me and they keep telling me I need to not hold back, to go harder. I usually do the first couple of takedowns on them pretty wimpily, being used to trying not to hurt anyone, but after 3 or 4 I'm in my stride and do them fairly well, with control, usually, but if I mess it up they know how to fall and aren't whining about it.

Anyway... long winded as usual. I know I need to talk to sensei, and I have mentioned it to a couple of the other black belts, so they are aware of it. I don't want to make it sound like I think I'm all that, and I know we can all learn something from everyone, but I am not getting enough practice in being able to do these takedowns properly. What I really want to know, is it usual for schools or styles that use a lot of throws and takedowns to mostly pair people up by size, or do you mix it up? I don't want to be disrespectful to sensei, but in my opinion size should not matter -- within limits, I probably wouldn't attempt a takedown against someone who outweighed me by a hundred pounds. But it seems to me it's about mostly body mechanics and leverage, and needs to be applicable to a range of body types and sizes. So, what do you all do?

[ninjanurse]

Good question. I definitely mix it up in my classes and teach my students to adapt to differences in size and weight-after all you do not choose your attacker on the street. If people have a legitimate acute injury I will allow them to bow out of the exercise or help them adapt if it is an ongoing issue. Students are required to declare any infirmities prior to class or they are fair game.

[Praesul]

In my class, we stick to people around the same size as us.

The only time my sensei would allow going against someone significantly bigger is if you're more experienced.

[Toptomcat]

Generally, we try to avoid trying to get people who are both inexperienced and small to throw someone who's significantly bigger than them, because it can turn a mistake from something that makes the throw a nonstarter or makes the throw a botch into something that makes the throw actively dangerous to the newbie. Beyond that, we mix it up as we please.

[ps1]

It's usually best to stick with a partner of a similar size because it allows you to do all of your throws. If you train with someone taller than you, most of your reaping throws are going to be crappy. If you train with someone shorter than you, your hip loading throws are going to suffer. A partner of the same size allows for all of the throws.

That said, your partner needs to either participate or not participate. She's more likely to get hurt and hurt someone else if she only wants to go really slowly through the techniques. When falling, the momentum of the throw is what often allows you to land safely. Imagine an ippon seionage (shoulder throw) if you just allow them to drop straight down off your shoulder! They could land on their head and hurt their neck.

All that said, you're right! Talk to your instructor about making sure you have a good partner during this part of class.

[tallgeese]

I'd agree, espically for newer people, keeping similiar sized partner for standing throws is a good idea. Weight and size does matter, it's why there's weight classes.

[GeoGiant]

We mix it up. We line up & rotate so I'm facing old / young, heavy / light, inexperienced / experienced.

[Throwdown0850]

We mix it up. We line up & rotate so I'm facing old / young, heavy / light, inexperienced / experienced.

same here.

[GeoGiant]

We mix it up. We line up & rotate so I'm facing old / young, heavy / light, inexperienced / experienced.

same here.

Mixing it up presents a variety of challenges aside from weight & height differences.

First & foremost having a good partner is the most important thing to me. When I say a good partner, I mean someone who when I’m on offense allows me to work through the technique without flinching or fighting against me. … & when I’m on defense doesn’t block with wet noodle arms or drive me through the floor with their technique. Sometimes I line up with a black belt or [insert any color] belt & they want to pontificate about what would work better AFTER we are given instruction. Or I line up with black belt or [insert any color] belt and they drive me through wall with a kick or punch… look, don’t get me wrong I think contact should be required but if I’m leaving myself 100% vulnerable so you can practice a one-step defense I don’t expect to have the wind knocked out me when you drive me to the floor by my throat. If that happens during sparring, shame on me.

I think a good partner provides a strong punch or kick that must be blocked. If the punch or kick is not blocked then light contact should be made. The amount of contact made should be a product of rank and persons level of experience with the technique being practiced. [i’m not the best at being a good attacker to a person I’m not familiar with. If I don’t focus I allow my punches to be directed by my anticipation of the block.] Also a good attacker has to okay with being taken down and this isn’t always the case. If someone is trying to break the fall before it happens it makes the entire movement awkward.

Assuming I had a good partner to work with that was evenly matched by weight and height, I think I’d end up with a false sense of learning & understanding a technique. I’m a tall guy so in the real world I want to know how my block or attack is going to work on someone before I initiate contact. The perceived down-side to learning with multiple partners is that it seems like it takes foreverrrrrrrrrrrr to get comfortable with a technique however you definitely feel like you own the technique when you finally get it.

[Throwdown0850]

We mix it up. We line up & rotate so I'm facing old / young, heavy / light, inexperienced / experienced.

same here.

Mixing it up presents a variety of challenges aside from weight & height differences.

First & foremost having a good partner is the most important thing to me. When I say a good partner, I mean someone who when I’m on offense allows me to work through the technique without flinching or fighting against me. … & when I’m on defense doesn’t block with wet noodle arms or drive me through the floor with their technique. Sometimes I line up with a black belt or [insert any color] belt & they want to pontificate about what would work better AFTER we are given instruction. Or I line up with black belt or [insert any color] belt and they drive me through wall with a kick or punch… look, don’t get me wrong I think contact should be required but if I’m leaving myself 100% vulnerable so you can practice a one-step defense I don’t expect to have the wind knocked out me when you drive me to the floor by my throat. If that happens during sparring, shame on me.

I think a good partner provides a strong punch or kick that must be blocked. If the punch or kick is not blocked then light contact should be made. The amount of contact made should be a product of rank and persons level of experience with the technique being practiced. [i’m not the best at being a good attacker to a person I’m not familiar with. If I don’t focus I allow my punches to be directed by my anticipation of the block.] Also a good attacker has to okay with being taken down and this isn’t always the case. If someone is trying to break the fall before it happens it makes the entire movement awkward.

Assuming I had a good partner to work with that was evenly matched by weight and height, I think I’d end up with a false sense of learning & understanding a technique. I’m a tall guy so in the real world I want to know how my block or attack is going to work on someone before I initiate contact. The perceived down-side to learning with multiple partners is that it seems like it takes foreverrrrrrrrrrrr to get comfortable with a technique however you definitely feel like you own the technique when you finally get it.

Agreed, especially in Judo, it is essential to have good ukemi.