Lineage - does it always matter?

[Toptomcat]

I’m very interested in the lineage of my art but that is just my nature. When I have an interest in something I want to know everything about it. I find myself seeking out others with knowledge on that topic for discussion and debate… that’s why I’m here . I love to hear other people’s opinions… unless its politics or religion… but that’s another discussion.

MAs appeals to me on several levels. My wife has asked me from time to time why I don’t join a boxing gym. She thinks that training to box (she has a little background in boxing) would provide me with the exercise and the physical challenges that I looking for. To my wife, karate = fighting. She doesn’t see the point in performing katas or learning the nomenclature. For me, MAs and training in the dojo represents a sanctuary. As soon as I walk through the door my mind clears and I know exactly what is expected of me. I enter a place is that defined with specific boundaries. There is a rhyme and reason for everything we do. The group dynamic is always present but at the end of the day each person is responsible for their own development. I think that part of that development is learning the traditions and philosophy of the art your studying.

Personally, I don’t how someone that truly desires to be a martial artist cannot be interested in lineage. If someone is involved in an art and only wishes to learn fighting techniques than I’d thing they would get bored by trying to perfect a movement.

Here you conflate 'lineage' with all aspects of martial arts that are spiritual, esoteric, or not directly related to fighting, which strikes me as an excessive generalization. It's certainly possible to be interested in learning how the traditions, philosophy, and kata of a martial art evolved without focusing unduly on lineage, much like it's possible to study history without subscribing to the Great Man theory.

[Jeffrey]

This I understand all to well. As part of the Shintani Wado Kai group I had a lot of questions regarding our linage. I believe someone said that what we do is not real Wado. So I did my digging to find the why and what it is we really do. Wado was introduced by Hironori Otsuka around 1939. He had many different students Sensei Masaru Shintani being one of them. He was made the Head of North America Wado Kai Karate By Sensei Otsuka. There was also other Sensei who went to other parts of the globe with Wado Kai. It is true that there are minor differences between each group. So which one is right. I believe they are all correct. Sensei Otsuka goal was to create in his students strength and calmness of character as well as the virtues of self-control. As long as each Wado Kai group keeps this practice they will always be studying Sensei Otsuka Wado Kai.

I would also like to mention regarding linage that not everyone is taught the same. We all have different body types and attributes that make us all unique. A good teacher will help students develop based on their skill and may mortify certain techniques to suit the student’s uniqueness. It is possible the teacher will than have 10 different students go out into the world with 10 different ways to do a technique.

Karatedo is ever involving.

Hi Jeffrey,

As I am sure you expected, I am going to take exception to what you have written.

First, on the general topic - I would agree that the lineage that is important is what you are taught not necessarily who taught you.

And I would agree that there are some minor differenced between the 3 main Wado groups around the world - but the principles conatined within remain constant.

Unfortunatley this does not apply to the Shintani Wadokai group imo. From a technical view point (literally how they move) their Karate is so far removed from mainstream Wado - its quite remarkable.

So here is a case in question where Shintani trained with Otsuka but over time the satalite of Shintani Wadokai became so distant it evolved into something completely different - not a good example of Karate lineage rather an example of karate politics at their worst.

Chitsu

I thought you poke head in and comment. Having only been doing this for about 1 year I can not agrue the technical differences so I will not even touch that and let someone deal with that. As for the example of Karate politics at their worst after speaking with someone who was still around when the split happend I would agree to that statement.

Now where lineage is concerned where do you draw the line? We all come from the same tree but grew in differnet shapes and styles. Lets trace to lineage back to china or Indian were it all began. Do you still practice the same art that was brought to those tiny islands so long ago? I don't think so. Tode is part of each and every lineage tree weather you agree or not. Just like all who practice Karatedo are all part of the tree which started it.

[GeoGiant]

Here you conflate 'lineage' with all aspects of martial arts that are spiritual, esoteric, or not directly related to fighting, which strikes me as an excessive generalization. It's certainly possible to be interested in learning how the traditions, philosophy, and kata of a martial art evolved without focusing unduly on lineage, much like it's possible to study history without subscribing to the Great Man theory.

I can't argue with you on that. Since its been so hard for me to locate a single group of individuals that I can trace back to one common ancester or founder i think i have generalized everything to a degree.

[tallgeese]

I think it's important to give credit where credit is due. Who shaped what you do? Where is it's orgin? What outside influnces shaped or added certain aspects of it?

Those are questions everyone should be able to answer just becasue I don't think those who brought ideas and addtions to a system should be overlooked. The wave after BJJ hit was to suddenly "discover" grappling applications in kata. Forget it, just man up and admit that getting some ground skill was a good idea and you went and trained with "x" camp to gain it.

Beyond that, I think that lineage is often oversold in trad arts. The changes to about every art I'm aware are probably so signifigant that they don't bear much resembliance to what was done in antquity anyway. Nor should it, things change along with our understanding of training physiology and psycololgy and physical performance fileds. This chages things.

Where the rubber meets the road, it rarely matters who trained with who in the last century.

[Chitsu]

Speaking as an outsider to this particular brouhaha, how is an art evolving into something different 'an example of karate politics at their worst'? You didn't say the karate was bad, you said it was different- which in my mind puts this in the category of 'business as usual' rather than 'terrible tragedy.'

The tragedy is where something gets sold as one thing - when clearly it’s something entirely different.

To understand the politics thing, you have to revisit the 50's, 60's and 70's and remember that there was a race on. The winner of that race would be the Japanese Karate School that successfully grew and achieved bridgeheads in Europe, North America and the rest of the world.

Although not something we like to think about today, fact is many senior dan grade ranks were simply handed out by founders of schools in recognition of support / creation of a national group - irrespective of the recipient’s technical ability.

In other walks of life, this type of politics would not raise too many eyebrows, but when it comes to ma, this is where it goes askew. Take the guy who (despite being way of the mark technically) gets awarded a rank well above his ability. He faithfully tries to promote the art and teach it “warts and all” – trouble is, the depth is not there in the first place - so chances are irregularities are only going to be further amplified the more the art is transmitted through the group.

Jeffrey,

The thought that Wado ultimately originates from Chinese / Okinawan origin seems to be a common argument frequently put forward by proponents of Shintani Wadokai.

In reality of course it doesn't; but to understand why, would put those suggesting such theorems at considerable discomfort - so it’s an easy out to just say we all grew from the same tree.

Chitsu

[sensei8]

Lineage! It's important within its proper context, otherwise, it's subjective, imho.

[Lupin1]

I guess in my particular style lineage is pretty straight forward. There were a handful of Americans who studied with Master Shimabuku in the 60s and 70s who came back and really contributed to Isshinryu in America and who are still very well known. Most Isshinryu instructors today learned from one of them or someone who learned from one of them. Pretty straight forward at this point in our history.

[JohnASE]

If nothing else, knowing your lineage might tell you how your training has differed from someone else's. Not all instructors are created equal. Each is better at teaching some things than others. Each has different ideas about what's most important, even within the same style. Students tend to follow in their instructor's footsteps.

Even students who train under the same instructor at different times might have drastically different experiences. I'd bet that most instructors that have taught for decades have changed their teaching style over the years, and teaching is part of what they teach. Also, some have changed what they've taught when they've changed their affiliation with organizations. I've heard of at least one instructor who is said to have changed a kata because he couldn't kick as high anymore! He denies it, but multiple students have agreed.

I remember seeing a thread on another forum that discussed Ed Parker's American Kenpo lineage. It branched off into a discussion about things that Mr. Parker developed later, things that some of his earlier black belts never learned. I remember hearing once (don't remember the source) that Mr. Parker could watch you do a kata and guess your lineage because of subtle difference in what he taught.

What you've learned is obviously important, but knowing your lineage can give you context.

[sensei8]

Lineage must be important to some, but apparently, lineage isn't important to everyone. How many times have I seen this when others have described Kanazawa Sensei...

"Kanazawa also learned from the founder of the Shotokan style, Gichin Funakoshi, and is one of the few living karateka to have done so."

OR

"He is one of very few still teaching today to have been taught by Master Gichin Funakoshi. He was a student of Master Masatoshi Nakayama (Former Chief Instructor of the Japan Karate Association)."

Things like these quoted comments, speak in volumes about, and to lineage. Obviously, lineage is very important, otherwise, quoted comments similar to those wouldn't be found everywhere. As I've stated before in this topic, lineage is important within its proper context, otherwise, it's subjective, imho.

I couldn't truly give a bent pin about who and/or whom Kanazawa Sensei has trained under. To me, acts like these about Kanazawa Sensei are nothing more than wow factors to the laymen.

Kanazawa Sensei has my respect, not because of the above quoted comments, but because Kanazawa Sensei is an exceptional karateka across the board! This can't be disputed!

[JiuJitsuNation]

I can only `speak from a BJJ background. For me it's very important. I think for the uneducated it doesn't mean much. However, I always encourage everyone to do some research on the school and or instructor you are choosing. Lineage can say a lot about the type of instruction and the level of the competency you can expect from the instructor. There are more than one bogus gracie jiu jitsu black belts in my area. An individual takes a picture with Royce Gracie at a seminar and then puts up the pictures starts teaching and telling everyone he is a Royce Gracie black belt. Whatever the style is i'm sure this has happened before. There should be a way for everyone to research the legitimacy of any one instructor. I am in the practice of suggesting the other schools in surrounding cities that I know are legit BJJ black belts. On another note. My lineage is important for me. I'm a black belt under Luiz Palhares, who is a sixth degree under Rickson Gracie.