Lineage - does it always matter?

[KarateGeorge]

This is something I started thinking about recently and is something I alluded to in a response on another thread, and it got me to thinking I'd start a thread on this topic.

I, like many martial artists, am highly interested in the history of my style, and many of us talk about the lineage of our training, and the style's history. Many times people often discuss the history of the art to determine its viability.

Anyway, though I love to learn about the history of martial arts, I got to thinking recently, that in many cases, it really shouldn't matter where the style came from, or the lineage of instructors one is learning from. If someone really just wants to learn to be a good fighter or learn self defense, then as long as what they're learning is actually effective in the ring or on the streets, then does the history really matter? It would seem that it really only matters if one's interests go beyond just learning how to fight, but when one has an interest in learning a specific style or one with roots from a specific era or place, or when there's an interest in learning about the history of the style. Granted, many of us begin martial arts just as a way to learn to defend ourselves or for a form of exercise, or some other reasons, and later become interested in the history and lineage of our styles, and so the importance may change over time as well. But I got to thinking, why do we martial artists make such a fuss over proving where our style came from or who our instructors learned from?

Now, other than instances where someone is being misleading/deceptive about their lineage or where their art came from, in which case I agree that that's obviously a bad practice, for someone interested in learning a form of self-defense or wanting to get in shape, shouldn't the abilities of the teacher and the effectiveness of what's being taught in helping one reach those goals matter more than whether the style can truly trace its lineage to some feudal Japanese fighting art, or whether one can trace their training back to a particular person from 100 or more years ago?

What are your thoughts?

[Toptomcat]

The only thing lineage is good for from a practical perspective is providing a good first approximation of a teacher's competence: if they were directly trained under someone you respect, then they're likely to be a good teacher as well. Importantly, before the modern era when networking became a lot easier and video of people performing kata, teaching class, and beating the snot out of each other with varying degrees of proficiency became available, that was one of the only ways of knowing that someone was competent: that they had a formidable reputation or was trained by someone who was. The big fuss over lineages is a cultural holdover from the days when that was the only game in town to determine who was trusted to supply martial arts training: the demand for a school's services stemmed directly from its reputation, so its adherents had an economic incentive to play up their lineages and trash others.

[Jeffrey]

This I understand all to well. As part of the Shintani Wado Kai group I had a lot of questions regarding our linage. I believe someone said that what we do is not real Wado. So I did my digging to find the why and what it is we really do. Wado was introduced by Hironori Otsuka around 1939. He had many different students Sensei Masaru Shintani being one of them. He was made the Head of North America Wado Kai Karate By Sensei Otsuka. There was also other Sensei who went to other parts of the globe with Wado Kai. It is true that there are minor differences between each group. So which one is right. I believe they are all correct. Sensei Otsuka goal was to create in his students strength and calmness of character as well as the virtues of self-control. As long as each Wado Kai group keeps this practice they will always be studying Sensei Otsuka Wado Kai.

I would also like to mention regarding linage that not everyone is taught the same. We all have different body types and attributes that make us all unique. A good teacher will help students develop based on their skill and may mortify certain techniques to suit the student’s uniqueness. It is possible the teacher will than have 10 different students go out into the world with 10 different ways to do a technique.

Karatedo is ever involving.

[JAKEHE3078]

Does anybody remember the game, Telephone, that we played in schools? If so enuff said.

[Jeffrey]

Does anybody remember the game, Telephone, that we played in schools? If so enuff said.

That is awesome! I remember it well.

[Chitsu]

This I understand all to well. As part of the Shintani Wado Kai group I had a lot of questions regarding our linage. I believe someone said that what we do is not real Wado. So I did my digging to find the why and what it is we really do. Wado was introduced by Hironori Otsuka around 1939. He had many different students Sensei Masaru Shintani being one of them. He was made the Head of North America Wado Kai Karate By Sensei Otsuka. There was also other Sensei who went to other parts of the globe with Wado Kai. It is true that there are minor differences between each group. So which one is right. I believe they are all correct. Sensei Otsuka goal was to create in his students strength and calmness of character as well as the virtues of self-control. As long as each Wado Kai group keeps this practice they will always be studying Sensei Otsuka Wado Kai.

I would also like to mention regarding linage that not everyone is taught the same. We all have different body types and attributes that make us all unique. A good teacher will help students develop based on their skill and may mortify certain techniques to suit the student’s uniqueness. It is possible the teacher will than have 10 different students go out into the world with 10 different ways to do a technique.

Karatedo is ever involving.

Hi Jeffrey,

As I am sure you expected, I am going to take exception to what you have written.

First, on the general topic - I would agree that the lineage that is important is what you are taught not necessarily who taught you.

And I would agree that there are some minor differenced between the 3 main Wado groups around the world - but the principles conatined within remain constant.

Unfortunatley this does not apply to the Shintani Wadokai group imo. From a technical view point (literally how they move) their Karate is so far removed from mainstream Wado - its quite remarkable.

So here is a case in question where Shintani trained with Otsuka but over time the satalite of Shintani Wadokai became so distant it evolved into something completely different - not a good example of Karate lineage rather an example of karate politics at their worst.

Chitsu

[Blade96]

As I am sure you expected, I am going to take exception to what you have written.

First, on the general topic - I would agree that the lineage that is important is what you are taught not necessarily who taught you.

Chitsu-san,

wouldn't who taught you also be a reflection and show just what exactly you are taught as showing a lot of legitimacy though?

My senseis, for example, both trained under Hidetaka Nishiyama-sensei and Masami Tsuruoka-sensei. Nishiyama-sensei was one of the actual students of Funakoshi O-Sensei.

The fact they trained under both these well known figures of karate shows what they were taught as legit also who taught them as also being legit.

I'd say both. who taught you and what you were taught. Its both. Its intertwined, interconnected. and both demonstrate legitimacy of your art and your dojo/dojang/etc.

[KarateGeorge]

Interesting thoughts everybody! Keep them coming!

[Toptomcat]

This I understand all to well. As part of the Shintani Wado Kai group I had a lot of questions regarding our linage. I believe someone said that what we do is not real Wado. So I did my digging to find the why and what it is we really do. Wado was introduced by Hironori Otsuka around 1939. He had many different students Sensei Masaru Shintani being one of them. He was made the Head of North America Wado Kai Karate By Sensei Otsuka. There was also other Sensei who went to other parts of the globe with Wado Kai. It is true that there are minor differences between each group. So which one is right. I believe they are all correct. Sensei Otsuka goal was to create in his students strength and calmness of character as well as the virtues of self-control. As long as each Wado Kai group keeps this practice they will always be studying Sensei Otsuka Wado Kai.

I would also like to mention regarding linage that not everyone is taught the same. We all have different body types and attributes that make us all unique. A good teacher will help students develop based on their skill and may mortify certain techniques to suit the student’s uniqueness. It is possible the teacher will than have 10 different students go out into the world with 10 different ways to do a technique.

Karatedo is ever involving.

Hi Jeffrey,

As I am sure you expected, I am going to take exception to what you have written.

First, on the general topic - I would agree that the lineage that is important is what you are taught not necessarily who taught you.

And I would agree that there are some minor differenced between the 3 main Wado groups around the world - but the principles conatined within remain constant.

Unfortunatley this does not apply to the Shintani Wadokai group imo. From a technical view point (literally how they move) their Karate is so far removed from mainstream Wado - its quite remarkable.

So here is a case in question where Shintani trained with Otsuka but over time the satalite of Shintani Wadokai became so distant it evolved into something completely different - not a good example of Karate lineage rather an example of karate politics at their worst.

Chitsu

Speaking as an outsider to this particular brouhaha, how is an art evolving into something different 'an example of karate politics at their worst'? You didn't say the karate was bad, you said it was different- which in my mind puts this in the category of 'business as usual' rather than 'terrible tragedy.'

[GeoGiant]

I’m very interested in the lineage of my art but that is just my nature. When I have an interest in something I want to know everything about it. I find myself seeking out others with knowledge on that topic for discussion and debate… that’s why I’m here . I love to hear other people’s opinions… unless its politics or religion… but that’s another discussion.

MAs appeals to me on several levels. My wife has asked me from time to time why I don’t join a boxing gym. She thinks that training to box (she has a little background in boxing) would provide me with the exercise and the physical challenges that I looking for. To my wife, karate = fighting. She doesn’t see the point in performing katas or learning the nomenclature. For me, MAs and training in the dojo represents a sanctuary. As soon as I walk through the door my mind clears and I know exactly what is expected of me. I enter a place is that defined with specific boundaries. There is a rhyme and reason for everything we do. The group dynamic is always present but at the end of the day each person is responsible for their own development. I think that part of that development is learning the traditions and philosophy of the art your studying.

Personally, I don’t how someone that truly desires to be a martial artist cannot be interested in lineage. If someone is involved in an art and only wishes to learn fighting techniques than I’d thing they would get bored by trying to perfect a movement.