Ok history buffs, how about a recommendation

[GeoGiant]

I’m trying to learn more about the history (as opposed to philosophy) of Tang Soo Do. I recently read Tang Soo Do the Way of the Warrior by Dominick Giacobbe and it was very good book but didn’t give me a tremendous amount of history. The book did touch on the Silla Dynasty and the formation of Hwarang, which seem to be the starting point for understanding the history of the art.

Can anyone recommend a book that would give me a good understanding of the Hwarang? I’ve searched several book sites and most books on the topic of Silla / Hwarang get mixed reviews. Mixed reviews wouldn’t scare me if I knew the intent of the person reading the book.

[Toptomcat]

The history of the Korean martial arts is really tough to get solid information on due to a concerted and deliberate campaign of nationalist revisionist history on the part of the government and the highest political levels of each of the styles. Essentially, nobody wants to acknowledge the (huge) influence of Japanese martial arts in the present crop of KMA due to the historical beef Korea has with Japan. If you want reliable information, look for something written by an academic historian or journalist- someone who's not a practicing martial artist of either a Korean or Japanese style, and preferably not of Korean nationality or ethnically Korean. Look for lots of angry, negative reviews about the horrible, vicious lies it's telling about Tang Soo Do, about how their teacher told them it wasn't true, etc. etc.

[GeoGiant]

I'm starting to see what you mean Toptomcat, its a shame. I love the physical aspects of TSD and I would love to know more about historical aspects. Most of the reference information I found is taken from out of print journals. You seem to have an understanding of Japanese / Korean MA history. In your opinion, do you think the Hwarang represent the beginnings of TSD?

[Toptomcat]

Not really. The art's nominal founder Hwang Kee claims to have been influenced by seeing the practice of, but never actually having been taught, the native kicking art taekkyon, and to have had some experience in an unspecified Chinese martial art, the Korean study of either of which could conceivably trace their roots to the Silla or Hwarang- but it's all a red herring. Precisely who Hwang Kee studied with and what the historical roots of those arts are is all but irrelevant to the modern practice of Tang Soo Do.

What you really need to do to see the historical roots of Tang Soo Do is to give the art itself a long, close look. It's an art taught while wearing gis, with chambered punches, a colored belt system with ten junior and ten senior ranks, versions of the Pinan, Naihanchi, Ba/Passai, and Jitte kata, sweeping forearm blocks, and a fundamentally similar technical syllabus to karate. Compare the differences between a Tang Soo Do school and a Shotokan school to those between a Tang Soo Do school and a boxing gym, or Muay Thai school, or Baguazhang school, or judo school, or jujutsu school, or Japanese koryu school, or capoiera school, and it will rapidly become apparent where TSD's roots really lie.

[GeoGiant]

If I’m way off based here please let me know (BTW – I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions).

A superficial comparison of the schools & fighting systems you listed seemed to indicate that Tang Soo Do & Shotokan are closely related by technique and philosophy. Both provide training that focuses on a 3-part system (basics / forms / sparring) that is learned from a standing position. Stances and movements are very similar. Also both utilize a similar belt or ranking system. The “others” you listed involve boxing, striking-grappling, striking-grappling-weapons, and dance. These techniques &/or philosophies &/or systems seemed to be significantly different from Tang Soo Do & Shotokan.

I know that you referenced Hwang Kee as the founder of Tang Soo Do. To me, Hwang Kee seemed to indicate (or the authors seemed to indicate) that Tang Soo Do evolved from Korean martial arts which can be traced back the period when Korea was divided into three kingdoms. A search of these 3 kingdoms indicated that Silla (I believe it is pronounced Shilla) eventually conquered and unified the 3. Since Silla is the conquering entity I looked in the history of Silla & martial arts and learned about the Hawarg… I see that I may have taken too many liberties while piecing the history together. Aside from the aforementioned, several sources stated that Hwang Kee incorporated Shotokan movements into Tang Soo Do

When I tried to find more information on Hwang Kee / Tang Soo Do I learned that Lee Won Kuk was credited as being one of the first instructors of Tang Soo Do in Korea. Apparently Lee Won Kuk had a dojo during the Japanese occupation of Korea. Around this same time Hwang Kee would have also been training in Tang Soo Do. I found very little information on Lee Won Kuk however what I did find said that he noted a close connection with Shotokan.

Ok…. If I ignore the question of who was the founder of Tang Soo Do (Hwang Kee or Lee Won Kuk) and focused on where the art originated, I’d have to say… Shotokan was already an established art at the time Tang Soo Do was recognized. If I can understand how Shotokan evolved I may have a better understanding of how Tang Soo Do was established….?

I’m sorry if this post reads like a ransom note but my head is pounding from trying to piece this together. To be honest, the more I learn the more confused I get.

[Toptomcat]

Both Lee Won Kuk's and Hwang Kee's studies in Shotokan can be historically verified- there are records, witnesses, dojos that were in the area they lived at the time. I don't think Lee Won Kuk has ever himself claimed that he learned taekkyon or other indigenous Korean martial arts, only that he was exposed to them in some capacity in his early training. Some of his students have claimed it on his behalf after he left Korea for political reasons, but to my knowledge he himself never did. As for Hwang Kee, his own interpretation of events is that he tried to learn taekkyon, was refused by a teacher of it, then went home and tried to teach it to himself from what he saw that teacher do- which I think anyone can agree is a terrible way to learn a martial art. Taekkyon's status as an art suppressed by both the Japanese occupation and before that the Neo-Confucian Korean government meant that at the time either man might have learned it, the art would be taught in secret, making historical verification one way or the other impossible- and thus creating a big temptation to stretch the truth when it later became politically fashionable to have a history in native Korean arts. It's much like the 80s 'ninja' boom in America- they're said to have been 'dishonorable', 'secret', 'outlawed' fighting styles, so nobody could reasonably be expected to produce historical documentation that said they were taught by a real Japanese ninja, so everyone and their dog ran around saying that they taught ninjutsu.

So, again- whether or not taekkyon and/or Silla can trace their historical roots back to the Hwarang, you'd have a hard time arguing that Tang Soo Do can trace its roots back to either of them through Lee Won Kuk or Hwang Kee.

[GeoGiant]

Thanks again Toptomcat. I plan to research this topic more but you saved me a lot time because i was going in the wrong direction.

[Toptomcat]

Glad I could be of help.

[james4949]

Ok, Buy this book Korean Martial Arts Handbook

http://www.karatekorner.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/productID/11160.htm

This will get you started. it is by far the best and most well rounded look at Korean martial arts history I have seen in one place. Other wise, start digging through the periodicals.

The other thing you need to look at is what is TSD? It is not just Kee and Lee who associated themselves with that. Many of the Kwans at some time or another had associated themselves with the name Tang Soo Do just as many of them changed later and called themselves Taekwondo.

You should also look at some of the Okinawan sources. While many people will say that Korean arts are influenced by the Japanese, they are forgetting that Okinawan Karate was being introduced to Japan during the occupation of Korea. Koreans were being exposed to it at the same time. The Occupation was really the vehicle for transmission. So while some Koreans were introduced to Karate by Japanese in Korea (Funakoshi notes one of his students teaching in Korea in his first book) other Koreans were learning in Japan and Okinawa.

[GeoGiant]

Thanks, I will check your recommendation out. I've read so many mixed reviews about Korean MAs history that I would rather take a personal recommendation from someone.