Punching from the waist..

[koreantiger81]

I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH PUNCHING FROM THE WAIST IN PATTERNS! In both I.T.F and W.T.F patterns, punching is done from the waist. I know these patterns are tradition, and I know it looks better to punch from the waist...BUT I say have your punching hand up in a guarding position, just like you would when you spar. It would definitely, help train novices to keep their hands up in sparring.

 

Remember, patterns are practiced in tae kwon do to develop co-rdination, breathing, power, speed, and to develop FORM. Punching from the waist, just develops bad habits. I don't think it would be a bad idea if you do a front low block in a walking stance, and execute a punch from a guarding position, rather than executing a punch from the waist. I admit it doesn't look as good, but it'll help novices to keep their hands up in sparring...What do you guys think!?

 

[ This Message was edited by: koreantiger81 on 2002-07-22 07:30 ]

[KickChick]

Practicing the punch this way in forms trains the body to use a full range of motion, but the punch is never used this way when sparring.

 

This full range of motion in the punch offers more "snap" ...

 

At the moment of impact, the fist is immediately retracted back to the hip.

 

The elbow pulls directly backward and the fist and forearm rotate outward so the fist ends in its original stating position at the hip (knuckles downward).

 

As the punching arm is punching toward its target, the non-punching elbow pulls directly backward to its corresponding hip. The fist and forearm rotate outward so the fist stop at hip with knuckles downward.

 

The powerful retraction of the non-punching fist adds the reaction force of the retraction to the force of the punching arm.

 

This action/reaction movement of the arms is used in all hand techniques (blocks, punches)within the forms.

 

In sparring the punch is usually used as a jab or reverse punch that starts from an on-guard position with the knuckles facing toward the opponent.

 

 

[ckdstudent]

At the moment of impact, the fist is immediately retracted back to the hip.

 

So you train to connect, but then pull back rather than following through? I hope I'm misunderstanding what you've said.

 

As for punching from the hip the movement tends to encourage overextension of the arm, which can injure the elbow and shoulder. I also has no real benefit for practicing more natural punches since the movements are different.

 

[ This Message was edited by: ckdstudent on 2002-07-22 09:27 ]

[karatekid1975]

I only practice punches from the waist in forms. That's it. When we do drills, step sparring, sparring, ect. I have my guard up (kinda like a boxer with the hands up elbows in). I was taught like that in TSD. The only time we did "waist" punching was in forms. We were taught to "box" with kicks LOL. Similar to kickboxing, yes.

 

 

[Pacificshore]

There is tradition and then there is practicality of application. It is up to you to recognize which is which as you continue on with your training. Just like when you practice your self defense techniques in an ideal situation with all the strikes going to a particular target, in practical application, there may be a need for change in your defense techinique due to variables in the environment.

 

I agree that anyone can develop bad habits, but it is up to the instructor to make the corrections by pointing them out, and the student to recognize them. My take on this topic.

[KickChick]

On 2002-07-22 09:23, ckdstudent wrote:

 

So you train to connect, but then pull back rather than following through? I hope I'm misunderstanding what you've said.

 

As for punching from the hip the movement tends to encourage overextension of the arm, which can injure the elbow and shoulder. I also has no real benefit for practicing more natural punches since the movements are different.

 

For forms yes. Following a punch in many of the forms you need to immediately retract fist into chamber to set up for next technique. In TKD both hands and feet must arrive at their different locations at exactly the same time.

 

To counter the overextension of the arm in punching during forms (or for that matter when training with delivering punches to a bag.... one need to focus more on the "pull back" of the punch rather than the extension , while keeping the elbow bent at all times.

 

 

[ckdstudent]

Following a punch in many of the forms you need to immediately retract fist into chamber to set up for next technique.

 

See this is an alien concept to me, seeing as our patterns are designed to flow continuously, and we practice techniques as we'd intend to use them.

In TKD both hands and feet must arrive at their different locations at exactly the same time.

 

That's easy to do, you don't need to pull back, or punch from the hip for that. You simply need half-decent timing.

To counter the overextension of the arm in punching during forms (or for that matter when training with delivering punches to a bag.... one need to focus more on the "pull back" of the punch rather than the extension , while keeping the elbow bent at all times.

 

Surely it would be more effecient to simply learn to apply circular movement to the punch so that overextension is not a problem and the arm naturally recoils to its guard position, without the need to waste extra effort, and time, by pulling back?

 

 

[El Guerrero Loco]

I think punching from the waste is pretty good when u get the chance. It DEFINATLEY improves the power of the punch. I thionk if you get the chance u should do it, if not , then fine. The whole, keeping ur guard up argument is valid but i have found that just "keeping ur guard up" isn't all that great. I have learned to be able to stop more punches with only my front hand and kicks using shin block and such. Now when practicing sometimes i even put one hand behind my back and merely use the other hand, shin blocks and body evasion techniques. Works like a charm. Mean while i can excecuted poweful punches from the hips, still i teach my students to keep their guard up.

 

 

[ckdstudent]

I guess the power must be something to do with training. With my hands in guard I can execute much faster punches than from my waist, since there is less distance for the fist to travel so more power is carried through to the target, and follows through. Of course we train to punch from about six to eight inches distance, so that might be another difference.

 

 

[KickChick]

I thought we were discussing the "punch" in WTF/ITF forms .... and whether performing the punch (having fist set up by the hip) develops a bad habit for fighting skills/sparring.

 

All in all you should be able to execute a punch at any starting point ... you should work on that during your training drills not during practice of forms.

 

Sport TKD fighters use patterns to sharpen their skills for competition and tournament. Patterns designed for competition are not necessarily the patterns academically and traditionally studied.