Why is TKD synonymous with Karate?

[weberje030916]

Can someone articulate the mixing of these Korean and Okinawan/Japanese arts to me or is it just considered synonymous due to public ignorance?

Was there a merger in history with the advent of the McBelt franchise?

[mudansha]

Can someone articulate the mixing of these Korean and Okinawan/Japanese arts to me or is it just considered synonymous due to public ignorance?

Was there a merger in history with the advent of the McBelt franchise?

The only people that were not "mixed" were the Chinese.

I did some research on the origins of Shotokan, and the Origins of Tae Kwon Do. Tae Kwon Do is a mixture of Shotokan, and Tekkyon (a forgotten kicking art from Korea).

Here is the history of Shotokan:

Origins of Shotokan Karate

Category: Sports

Origins of Shotokan Karate

Chatan Yara (1668 - 1756) was originally from Okinawa. He was sent to China at age 12 to learn the language and the culture. There he met Chinese master Wong Chung-Yoh learning Xingyiquan, an ancient martial art. He studied under him for several years learning self defense, the Bo Staff and dual sais. He also studied the art of Ch'uan Fa (Kempo in Japanese) under master Kusanku for several years. After twenty years of training, he moved back to Okinawa near the village of Shuri in 1700. Once there, he came to the aid of a woman who was being harassed by a samurai. He was unarmed, yet was able to avoid the samurai who was armed with a katana sword. Yari defended himself with an oar he grabbed from a nearby boat and was able to kill the samurai. He was then asked by local authorities to teach his martial art to locals for self defense; he called this art “Te” or “hand” in japanese.

Wanshu was a leader of a Chinese delegation that came to Tomari Okinawa in 1683. He was a Shoalin Monk trained in the art of Fujian White Crane, a form of chinese boxing, and Chu'an Fa. He taught these disciplines to the residents of Tomari and developed a kata that still bears his name. Many styles of Okinawan karate contain the Wanshu kata. For practitioners of Shotokan, when Gichin Funakoshi incorporated the kata into his style, he changed the name to Empi.

Higa Pechin (1790–1870) Originally, Higa was taught Chu'an Fa from Zhang Xue Li, a Chinese master. Later when Wnshu came to Okinawa in 1683, he learned Wanshu's predetermined sequence of moves and dubbed it “forms” or Kata. He was instrumental in the development of Kata to martial arts. He took the inspiration from Wanshu and devised weapons katas for the tonfa, sai, and the bo staff. He was really the first martial artist in Okinawa to develop katas.

Peichin Takahara (1683-1760-66) Takahara learned “Te” from Chatan Yara, and weapons training from Higa Pechin. In addition to the weapons training, he was also taught Higa's katas. He was a great warrior in the old feudal system that existed in the RyuKyu islands which now include Okinawa.

Kusanku (1700-1762) aka Kwang Shang Fu. Kusanku was a Chu'an Fa (Kempo) practitioner from China. In 1756 he was a chinese ambassador to Okinawa and lived near the village of Naha. During his time in Okinawa, he also trained with Chatan Yara.

Kanga Sakukawa (1733 – 1815) Sakukawa was from the village of Shuri and was a practitioner of Te under the direction of Peichin Takahara. He was instrumental in the further development of the art of Te and is often regarded as the “father of Okinawan Karate”. He trained under Takahara for six years until he met with Kusanku and trained under him for six years. In 1762, his sensei Kusanku died so he developed a kata in his honor and called it Kusanku. This kata is in many styles of Karate. When Gichin Funakoshi included this kata, he changed the name to Kanku Dai.

Thanks to the pioneers of Te, it began to spread throughout Okinawa and each new master added their own inflections to the art. As time progressed, certain styles began to immerge depending on the village it was practiced. The three villages were Shuri, Tomari, and Naha. The result was three styles of Te, Shuri-te, Tomari-Te and Naha-te.

Sokon Matsumura (1800-1890) Sokon was from Shuri and trained under Kanga Sakukawa in the art of Shuri-Te. He became quite proficient in the art and eventually received a title of nobility from King Sho Ko and was the chief instructor and body guard for the king and his successors. Later he traveled to China and further studied Chu'an Fa (Kempo). He later returned to Okinawa and brought his knowledge back. Some of the items he brought back were katas borrowed from his Chu'an Fa teachings. Naihanchi (Later changed to Tekki), Passai (Later changed to Bassai Dai/Sho), Seisan (later changed to Hangetsu), Chinto (Later changed to Gankaku), and Gojushiho (shotokan splits this into two versions, sho and dai). He also Invented the Kata Kusanku. In shotokan, Kusanku is the parent kata of Kanku Sho and Kanku Dai. Sokon Matsumura also founded what is still today a form of traditional martial arts- Shorin-ryu. He did this by combining the arts of Shuri-te and Tomari-te.

Anko Itosu (1831-1915) and Anko Asato (1827–1906) were both students of Sokon Matsumura. They both trained Gichin Funakoshi in the arts of Shuri-te and Shorin-Ryu.

Gichin Funakoshi (1868-1957) Gichin Funakoshi studied Shorin ryu under Anko Asato for years. He also studied Shorei-Ryu and studied weapons under Anko Itosu. He was very adept with Okinawan swords and the art of Kendo (japanese sword fighting). He used this in his personal practice of martial arts and developed the timing and distancing based on that kendo training.

Gichin was a poet and often went by the pen name “Shoto” which means “Pine Waves” . In Okinawa, the many different styles of Te were referred to “chinese hand” because of its Chinese origins. When Gichin moved to Japan in 1936, there were many bad feelings towards china. As a result he changed the name of his teachings from “Chinese Hand” to “Empty Hand”. Both Chinese and Empty are pronounced “kara” though in japanese they are written differently. In essence, Funakoshi changed the meaning of Kara-te from chinese hand to empty hand without changing the sound of the word. He also changed all of the old names of the kata to further distance himself from the chinese arts. After moving to Tokyo, Japan he opened his first dojo which he called “Shotokan”. Kan means “place” so it basically means “Shoto's Place”. He went to local colleges and universities demonstrating his art and encouraging them to adopt karate classes. Gichin never referred to his art as anything but Karate; shotokan was simply the name of his school. His campaigning in Japan paid off and karate took off in Japan and Funakoshi was the first one to bring the art to the mainland. In 1955 he founded the Japan Karate Association (JKA) which is still in business today. In addition to the JKA, Funakoshi also formed the Shotokai; an organization of his karate students. During his life, he strictly denounced the idea of sport karate. In his view, karate was a “one strike kill” art and anything short of that would be diluting the art. For this reason sport karate was never done in his honor. After his death in 1957, the JKA decided to hold a sport karate tournament. The hard-line proponents of Funakoshi's students protested and from that point on, the two organizations went separate ways. The Shotokai still to this day refuse to compete in competitions and for this reason they are rarely heard from though they still exist. They share the same kata as shotokan, but perform it with a different style. The Shotokan dojo was destroyed in 1945 but after his death in 1957, the JKA adopted the name “Shotokan” and hence, the style's official name was born.

[DWx]

Its not really ignorance. Tae Kwon Do is partly derived Karate, in particular Shotokan, and early TKD was pretty much just Karate itself. If you really want an indepth history of it A Killing Art by Alex Gillis is an excellent book for TKD history. There's also quite a nice series of articles in Totally TKD magazine explaining the precursors and history of TKD. You can download them here. The articles are in issue 5 page 75, issue 6 page 24, and issue 7 page 15. Or even Wikipedia is ok at giving TKD history.

In short though, the original TKD masters learnt various styles of Karate (and other MAs) and then developed them and taught these new styles in their kwans (schools). The master were calling these styles all sorts of names, some even still using Karate. In an effort to promote Korean spirit after the Japanese occupation these kwans were then unified under the name Taekwondo.

Also when the original masters brought TKD to the west, they were calling it "Korean Karate" so that people could understand what it was.

[wildman1717]

I'm a ITF TKD blackbelt, and TKD does have a Shotokan background. I'm glad of this because the WTF TKD just seems like another style.

[mudansha]

Also when the original masters brought TKD to the west, they were calling it "Korean Karate" so that people could understand what it was.

Hence... Tang Soo Do.

The Japanese characters which spell Karate mean "The way of the empty hand" but that was not always so. That was changed by Gichin Funakoshi.

Originally, the characters meant "The way of the Chinese hand" in reference to the chinese origins. Due to the dislike of the Chinese by the Japanese, gichin funakoshi chose to change the name by changing the characters used. It is a homonym... much like saying: "Game Man" and "Gay Man". Both sound the same but mean two different things. Though it was always pronounced "Karate", Funakoshi changed it to "empty" instead of "Chinese".

Tang Soo Do literally means "The way of the Chinese hand" in Korean. Tang Soo Do is a Korean martial art that did NOT incorporate Tekkeon into its doctrine and basically just took Shotokan, and converted the language into Korean; it really is Korean Karate.

As stated in my OP... General Choi started Tae Kwon Do, and he was a Nidan under Funakoshi (Who only called his art Karate, "shotokan" came after his death).

TKD has the Heian (also called Pinan) forms. When Gichin changed what "karate" meant, he also changed the name of the katas. That is why the Pinan katas are called "Heian" in shotokan, and the naihanchi katas are "tekki", et cetera.

The martial arts world is packed full of incestuous marriages of styles and techniques so badly that today, any one style has the same moves. There is no such thing as a bad style... only bad instruction.

[weberje030916]

Thank you all. That was very informative! Much appreciated.

[Toptomcat]

Also note that if you ask some really hard-line Koreans about all this, they'll deny it to Hell and back, spouting all sorts of obvious nonsense about the Hwarang and how TKD is really derived from their native kicking art Taekkyeon. Don't believe a word of it, it's all revisionist history made because they've got historical beef with the Japanese.

[DWx]

Tang Soo Do literally means "The way of the Chinese hand" in Korean. Tang Soo Do is a Korean martial art that did NOT incorporate Tekkeon into its doctrine and basically just took Shotokan, and converted the language into Korean; it really is Korean Karate.

I wouldn't necessarily call TSD just Korean Karate. It has evolved over the years, if you look at it now it bears a much stronger resemblance to other forms over TKD. Whether or not Hwang Kee truly studied TaeKyon is debatable (as it is with all the masters) but he did have other stylistic influence than just shotokan. Some of the other guys on the forum could probably explain TSD history better than me...

General Choi started Tae Kwon Do, and he was a Nidan under Funakoshi (Who only called his art Karate, "shotokan" came after his death).

The ITF would like you to think that but its not strictly true. Gen. Choi was definitely one of the original pioneers and was totally invaluable in developing Taekwondo into what it was today but he didn't start it. I don't think you can credit anyone with "starting it" really. The individual kwans arose by themselves then were forced to unify.

[mudansha]

Tang Soo Do literally means "The way of the Chinese hand" in Korean. Tang Soo Do is a Korean martial art that did NOT incorporate Tekkeon into its doctrine and basically just took Shotokan, and converted the language into Korean; it really is Korean Karate.

I wouldn't necessarily call TSD just Korean Karate. It has evolved over the years, if you look at it now it bears a much stronger resemblance to other forms over TKD. Whether or not Hwang Kee truly studied TaeKyon is debatable (as it is with all the masters) but he did have other stylistic influence than just shotokan. Some of the other guys on the forum could probably explain TSD history better than me...

General Choi started Tae Kwon Do, and he was a Nidan under Funakoshi (Who only called his art Karate, "shotokan" came after his death).

The ITF would like you to think that but its not strictly true. Gen. Choi was definitely one of the original pioneers and was totally invaluable in developing Taekwondo into what it was today but he didn't start it. I don't think you can credit anyone with "starting it" really. The individual kwans arose by themselves then were forced to unify.

That is nothing new... research Shuri-Te, Naha-Te, and Tomari-Te... all were combined into Kara-Te one way or another...

Any time an art is taught from one person, to the next, subtle changes are incorporated. A karateka has his own flare and body mechanics which alter ever so slightly, the appearance of a kata and eventually a style.

Gichin Funakoshi died 53 years ago. When he died, his school broke apart when they disagreed over competitions. Two separate dojos emerged. All of the students were taught by the same master, but when they broke apart, they evolved into two different styles of Karate: shotokan and Shotokai. For the last 50 years, the same teachings from the same master were taught but the two styles took very different evolutionary tracts. Today, the names and moves of the kata are the same, but they are performed in much different ways.

Here is Shotokai:

The moves are fluid and run together.

Here is Shotokan:

The moves are more direct and distinct.

As you can see... once a style breaks away... they begin to vary greatly.

[tonydee]

Also note that if you ask some really hard-line Koreans about all this, they'll deny it to Hell and back, spouting all sorts of obvious nonsense about the Hwarang and how TKD is really derived from their native kicking art Taekkyeon. Don't believe a word of it, it's all revisionist history made because they've got historical beef with the Japanese.

Either I had a really vivid dream ~ten years ago, or I tracked down a magazine interview with Choi Hong Hi on the 'net where he was cornered in later life by a highly respected Korean academic who was intimately familiar with taekkyon history and repeated the assertion that Choi's calligraphy teacher - based on where he'd lived - simply wouldn't have had any access to any of the people practicing taekkyon. On top of that, there was social stigma and the Japanese all discouraging interest in the art. As I recall it, Choi finally admitted that - as a boy - he'd not literally learned any taekkyon movements from his calligraphy teacher, but rather just be "inspired" by stories about its existence. I've tried to find this video again since - my recollection was it was uploaded as a number of images scanned from the magazine - but never found it. I think I might have saved it to my hard disk, but I've so much stuff on so many hard disks I'd need weeks to search.

Apparently it took him a while to warm up to this admission - much more recently I was searching Amazon for any video of Choi and found this video - note that the second reviewer points out that in the interview he admits to having learned only 1 or 2 movements of taekkyon. I wasn't sufficiently interested to buy the video though....

That said, I'm not trying to suggest Choi's martial arts influences uniquely defined taekwondo - his military and political connections simply let him control his seniors in martial arts for a while - but he made some of the strongest and widely publicised claims to Korean martial arts links, while others brought in other Japanese and Chinese influences.

Cheers,

Tony