Complementing Shotokan

[Fearun9033]

Hey everyone!

I'm currently a 5th kyu training in Shotokan. I've heard a lot of people telling me that training in more than one style is beneficial as it allows learning more techniques and applications and get a wider grasp on things.

So my question it: What style/martial art would complement well my Shotokan training?

I'm not going to start until a few years from now but I'm starting to look around (for good dojos and all). By complement, I don't mean it has to be similar, it can be very different and even completely unrelated martial art.

I personally would like to have something that focuses more real combat applications. I know Shotokan is still useful to some degrees in real combat (with its kicks and focus on maintaining a safe distance). I've thought sometimes about Kyokushinkai karate, Wing Chun or even Krav Maga.

Any suggestions (with argument)? Please, "this" style is "better" than "that" is not an argument hehe.

[Lupin1]

I don't have any experience in this as I've only ever trained in one style, but I know when I eventually branch out (which I do plan on doing) I want to do a grappling art-- most likely Brazilian Ju Jitsu. That way I'm covered by my Isshinryu in a fight on our feet, but if someone grabs me and we go to the ground, I'm covered there, too. I feel like I'll build a much wider skill set if I do a grappling art as opposed to another punching/kicking type art.

Although I have to admit although the concept seems fun and extremely useful, I'm not too anxious to get some big sweaty, hairy old guy wrapping his legs around my neck with his crotch in my face. Ewww. That aspect of BJJ kinda scares me away a bit...

[Toptomcat]

Pick up a grappling style. It's become an unquestioned fact that a martial artist needs to be able to function in the grappling range in order to be practically competent. Brazilian jujutsu and judo are of high quality and likely to have a dojo in your area: sambo, shuai jiao and catch wrestling are worth a look but less likely to be reachable: and wrestling is sort of a special case, being quite good and trivially findable if you're in high school or college and very difficult to find if you aren't.

Of the three arts you mentioned, I'd pick Kyokushinkai karate. Wing Chun is a large collection of wonderful, fascinating theory that I've never seen anyone unite into a coherent, functioning whole, and while good Krav Maga is very good, you're vastly more likely to find bad Krav Maga due to its quality control problems.

[Dr. Frank]

"I know Shotokan is still useful to some degrees in real combat..."

This is like the third time I have recently heard somebody suggest that Shotokan is only marginally effective as a real fighting/defensive art. I have no idea where such a notion is coming from as both of the instructors I have trained under (and a large number of fellow students, as well) caused me to experience absolute terror at the thought of having to actually fight them in a real fight.

I have been in several real fights and have spoken with several fellow Shotokan practitioners with similar experiences and I can assure you that traditional Shotokan works quite well for self-defense. I believe that Funakoshi "toned down" the techniques to make the art more acceptable for teaching in the Japanese public schools and I believe that Nakayama made additional efforts in the late 1950s following Funakoshi's death to make Shotokan more competitive in the world of sport karate, but the roots of all martial arts styles lie in unarmed people being able to defend themselves and it's no different with Shotokan.

[Fearun9033]

I was just thinking about a grappling art and/or something that focuses more on infighting. This is especially true in Shotokan because my sensei never teaches any grappling technique.

The closest thing I've got is a few leg sweep techniques and sweeping hip throw. In most sparring competitions, once a hit has been scored, it's over. If you throw down someone and follow with a hit, he/she scores and both participants stop. I know in real life this isn't likely to happen haha. There's only 1 kata in all of Shotokan (to my knowledge) that has a technique on the ground; Unsu has 2 kicks from the ground.

Although I have to admit although the concept seems fun and extremely useful, I'm not too anxious to get some big sweaty, hairy old guy wrapping his legs around my neck with his crotch in my face. Ewww. That aspect of BJJ kinda scares me away a bit...

Hahaha I might take up judo or jiujitsu once I feel I'm ready to branch!

Thanks Tomcat for your insight into the different styles and dojos! I think there are a few programs of judo or sambo at my university. I might check it out later.

This is like the third time I have recently heard somebody suggest that Shotokan is only marginally effective as a real fighting/defensive art.

Sorry Dr. Frank, I might have misformulated what I meant. I didn't mean that Shotokan is "marginally" effective, I just said that it is useful to some degree. What I really meant was that it is effective in long-range, standing situations and not during in-fighting and grappling/ground fights. I've seen my sensei fight (real sparring, not robot technique demonstration) and it's almost impossible to touch him.

Thanks for all the insight!

[Jay]

Grappling Art.

Actually in the higher stages of shotokan there are a lot of grappling moves. These can be seen in kata such a kanku sho. I was taught a lot of grappling stuff at my school but you may not.

Judo I find is usually good for throwing but a bit basic for actually rolling around on the ground with people. For that you really need BJJ.

[Fearun9033]

Thank you for the clarification Jay! I will definitely check out BJJ then (even if it means getting a crotch to the face every now and then).

My dojo is relatively small (20~ students) so not that many black belts and we don't focus that much on grappling. I guess all dojos have their own teaching style. I know some dojos even focus a lot on weapon training.

[Chitsu]

The only thing that will make your Shotokan any better, is to practice more Shotokan:

Old adage - you get good at what you practice - period.

If however, you are looking to broaden your outlook on "Budo" (and btw that takes considerable existing knowledge to do so) - then maybe look at arts that will improve your understanding of things like movement (and the principles inherent to it) such as Tai-chi or Aikido etc.

Chitsu

[Dr. Frank]

Knowledgeable Shotokan stylists have a saying. When told that we will be met "anywhere at anytime" for a fight, our choice is high noon in a phone booth.

My instructors have always emphasized close-in fighting techniques. All one must do to see the close range techniques in Shotokan is examine the katas. Hook punches in Heian Nidan, Tekki Shodan, and others. Upward elbow strikes such as in Gojushio Dai and others. Cross elbow strikes as seen in Heian Yondan and others. Knee attacks in Heian Yondan and others. All of these are in your face, close in fighting techniques and there are many, many examples in Shotokan katas.

I don't know what type of Shotokan you are studying, but if you feel it isn't effective in close then it isn't the same Shotokan I have studied since 1973.

My present instructor has trained a couple MMA fighters and he laughs at the idea of someone diving head first at his legs in a fight. That's a good way to lose your front teeth.

I know that grappling is all the rage right now, but I have ways of defending against someone trying to wrestle me to the ground. Anyone trying that leaves himself wide open for numerous counterattacks.

[Toptomcat]

The only thing that will make your Shotokan any better, is to practice more Shotokan.

That depends largely on what you view the purpose of Shotokan to be. If you view it primarily as a method of exercise, or an art in the aesthetic sense, or as a spiritual pursuit, then perhaps you are correct. If you view it as a practical method of self-defense, then you will be well served by beginning training in a grappling discipline.

As you said, you get good at what you practice, and no one martial art actually practices combat or self-defense per se. None of them contain an activity exactly analogous to fighting. Each of them instead contains various methods, skills, drills, exercises, and sets of sparring rules, all of which are designed to make you better at self-defense, but none of which contain the entire set of skills useful in self-defense. If a certain aspect of combat- such as grappling- is left untouched by the syllabus of one martial art, it is certain that study of another which does cover it will increase the student's ability to deal with the totality of self-defense or combat.

...My instructors have always emphasized close-in fighting techniques. All one must do to see the close range techniques in Shotokan is examine the katas. Hook punches in Heian Nidan, Tekki Shodan, and others. Upward elbow strikes such as in Gojushio Dai and others. Cross elbow strikes as seen in Heian Yondan and others. Knee attacks in Heian Yondan and others. All of these are in your face, close in fighting techniques and there are many, many examples in Shotokan katas.

...

My present instructor has trained a couple MMA fighters and he laughs at the idea of someone diving head first at his legs in a fight. That's a good way to lose your front teeth.

I know that grappling is all the rage right now, but I have ways of defending against someone trying to wrestle me to the ground. Anyone trying that leaves himself wide open for numerous counterattacks.

The present interest in grappling is no mere fad, but an improvement in the state of the art. While there are some techniques that make it more difficult to take down a knowledgeable and resistant opponent, using them as an excuse to ignore the full range of combat addressed by many venerable martial arts verges on the foolhardy. The completeness of your confidence in your ability to prevent anyone from taking you down shows that you have never tested that theory against a well-trained judoka, wrestler, or jujitsuka. In particular your description of a double-leg takedown as 'diving headfirst at the legs' shows that you have not made serious study of the mechanics of the technique. Find a grappler or mixed martial artist willing to help you test your skills in the area: whatever the outcome (though I suspect I know what it will be), it can only help improve your understanding of budo.