Determining Place in Line

[still kicking]

usc96 asks:

how did you go from being a black belt and instructor to being a white belt with a 4+ year timeline in the same school?

It's because I was away for 22 years! It would have been silly for me to come back and put on a black belt, as I was in pathetic shape, if nothing else. I had to go through all the ranks to really perfect the requirements for each level, which had changed and tightened up considerably in the intervening years. It's hard to know how it should go, because when I was white belt and lower rank this time around, new people coming in might have been intimidated because I was better than them, but that's probably better than wearing a black belt and having new people come in and think that our black belts are pathetic! Anyway, it doesn't matter any more. I think I'm really lucky because the first time around, I had the most fun at this level, training really hard to get ready for the black belt test, and now I get to enjoy it again. In other words, working for a black belt is more fun than having one!

[Chitsu]

Well I guess the proper way to do things, would be for you to stand where your senpai told you to.

A Dojo senpai is head of the class, so he determines these things.

We have had 4th and 5th dans (from other groups) come and train at our school. Whilst we respect their grade, the Dojo senpai (who is a first dan) is more senior than them - in our dojo - period.

Remember (at the dojo level), grade/standing is only relative to the group/instructor you train with.

Chitsu

[Blade96]

I like tradition and am fine with the lining up and all the rules. I found out that the reason that lower levels were lined up to the right (closer to the dojo doors) was that, in the old time, dojos were often attacked. So... guess who are standing close to the door haha.

Same. I love all this! I find too it makes me feel - safer and more secure somehow.

Personally, I let all the kids in my class who are same belt level go left of me if they want even though I am their senior, am physically more powerful, more technically proficient, know more katas, etc.

I personally dont care who stands left or right of me either (i mean who's a rookie white belt and who's a white belt thats almost yellow like me) I'm not like oh you gotta stand in this spot cause i been here longer or some such crud even though i'm almost yellow and they arent. It just doesnt matter to me.

But higher belts - they stand in front and right of me, where they belong.

[still kicking]

It doesn't matter to me either, I just want to know what's proper protocol!

[still kicking]

OK, I'm all better now. I'm really sorry to belabor this point, and maybe it's like Toptomcat says, and that it's a fine point with no clear answer. In any case, of course I will do what my sensei wants, I just wanted to know what you all think. Thanks for all of your replies.

[Chitsu]

Correct protocol dictates that the more senior rank (as ordained by the dojo - sensei) stands to the furthest right (as the students look at the sensei)

The more you are stood to the left (and the further back you go) the more junior you are.

Hope that makes sense.

Chitsu

Edited February 6, 2010 by Chitsu

[Lupin1]

Woah. Chillax. No need to burst into flames...

What I'm getting from all this is that there probably is no "proper" protocol when you're getting that specific. Rank, yes. Time in grade, sometimes. Beyond that probably depends entirely on the school and how nitpicky they are. I mean, if you want to get very traditional, karate was mostly individual instruction without ranks, so they didn't ever line up by rank. All that's modern invention. And with most modern invention in karate, it varies from school to school and ways of doing things aren't proper or improper outside your particular dojo. One way isn't necessarily more right than another, they're just different.

[sensei8]

For as long as I can remember, Shindokan Karateka's stand in line WHEREVER TOLD TO STAND!!!! For protocol and the like, Shindokan Karateka's line up: Rank then time in rank then age then experience.

I'd rather stand in the “janitor’s cupboard” of a good dojo - than at the front of a poor one.

Absolutely and YES!!!!!!!!

Well I guess the proper way to do things, would be for you to stand where your senpai told you to.

A Dojo senpai is head of the class, so he determines these things.

We have had 4th and 5th dans (from other groups) come and train at our school. Whilst we respect their grade, the Dojo senpai (who is a first dan) is more senior than them - in our dojo - period.

Remember (at the dojo level), grade/standing is only relative to the group/instructor you train with.

Absolutely and YES!!!!!! I've stood at the very end of many lines whenever I was visiting another dojo, whether it was to just train or to conduct a seminar. I've done this each and everytime without being told to do so and I didn't move from the very end of the line until the Chief Instructor of said dojo told me to. Why? Respect for said dojo, the Chief Instructor, and the students of that said dojo. Yes, I'm a Hachidan and all that, but until the Chief Instructor of that said dojo says otherwise; I'm simply nobody, nothing and I'm proud of that status. I'm the lowest ranked at that said dojo...period!

[WireFrame]

If I'm the same grade as someone else, they've lined up and I'm approaching the line, I go for the side of them that has the bigger gap to step into, and I expect them to do the same.

If there's room to stand there, thats where I stand.

[sensei8]

One way isn't necessarily more right than another, they're just different.

Lupin1 said the quote above and is absolutely correct!!!!!!

Wouldn't it be great if one day your/mine Sensei said...."Line up wherever you want, just hurry up!" and then we did?

You know what? As a matter of fact....I'm going to do just that tomorrow, 02/08/2010, at the Hombu at each and every class...as an experiment!