Determining Place in Line

[still kicking]

Warning, long post. I am addressing this question primarily to those who consider themselves to be fairly well versed in traditional Japanese MA's, and especially the associated etiquette, though of course am always open to anyone's opinion. First I have to say that I think that seniority relates only indirectly to rank, which relates only indirectly to skill. My question is this -- what are your opinions on where I should line up in class?

In my school, we line up at the beginning and end of class, and at many times during class during certain exercises, "according to rank". Everyone seems to know where to go, and up until now, I have, too. Don't get me wrong, as people we are not hierarchical! During breaks and before and after class, everyone is quite friendly, and during class I think that we quite like and respect one another as well. There is no abuse of lower ranks by higher ranks or anything like that. However, in terms of lining up, we are pretty rigid about hierarchy, for better or worse.

Lining up by rank is not as clear cut as it might seem. Obviously black belts are ahead of brown, who are ahead of green, and etc. If 2 people are exactly the same rank, but one has earned it earlier, the first person to earn the rank is to the left. If they both earn it on the same day, then it goes by seniority. And here is the crux of my uncertainty. And by the way, I have even asked sensei about it, and she said she would think about it, but I was wondering what you all think. I was recently promoted to 2nd kyu, along with one other person on the same date. There are a few other people who are also 2nd kyu, but they achieved this rank in previous promotions, so are ahead of us new 2nd kyus. That much is clear. It turns out that the other 2nd kyu is considered a junior (a teen who trains with the adult class), so I am considered her senior and stand to her left. But my question is about, what if in the future I am promoted to a rank on the same day as some of those adult students who are now ahead of me?

The thing is, I commenced my karate training in this very same karate school in 1978. I attained the level of shodan and trained, and eventually taught, there for a little more than 6 years, when I left for a whole bunch of complicated reasons. I returned in Jan. 2006, started over from white belt, and now 4 years later am 2nd kyu.

My opinion, just speaking from a correctness standpoint, is that I have a little more than 10 years of training. The first 6 years of it began in 1978, and the last 4 year began in 2006. I am very clear that there is no way I would be performing at the level I am now without that previous 6 years of training. What I am doing now was built on that foundation. The other adult 2nd kyus, who are now ahead of me, i.e. attained the rank earlier, started between 9 and 11 years ago, I think. Anyway, long after 1978! So my opinion is that if at some point in the future we are all promoted to 1st kyu or whatever together, on the same day, that my seniority date should be 1978, not 2006.

Please understand... on one level, I could give a rat's abdomen where I stand. I love training and profoundly respect everyone I train with, and if there is a clumping of us who achieved exactly the same rank on the same day, obviously for all intents and purposes we are equal. (Though as I said at the beginning, rank is not the same as seniority is not the same as skill, and may vary). This is important to me mainly because if we are to "line up according to rank" at numerous times during a class, I need to know where to stand. I think it is also important, though, just because it seems correct to acknowledge my previous training, to show respect to what my first teacher taught me (who after all was the founder of this school), and to not pretend that I have learned all I know, such as it is, in the past four years.

So... what do you think? I am fully prepared for all of you who are not into the hierarchy of traditional Japanese arts to have at it. I understand. Sometimes it totally drives me nuts, and I wish we all just trained in sweat pants and t-shirts and mixed it up. Yet for some reason there is something comforting and beautiful about the rigidity of it to me as well. Anyway... wherever sensei tells me to stand is where I will stand, and will be happy with it.

[Fearun9033]

I like tradition and am fine with the lining up and all the rules. I found out that the reason that lower levels were lined up to the right (closer to the dojo doors) was that, in the old time, dojos were often attacked. So... guess who are standing close to the door haha.

I understand your dilemma. If you personally don't care about the rank and all, I'd just just line up according to the rules and as if you are 2nd kyu.

I know you used to be higher ranked and it's true that you may not have the skill as back then. So this makes it the logical choice.

Either way, know that the true warrior is inside of you, not on your belt, rank or lining position!

Personally, I let all the kids in my class who are same belt level go left of me if they want even though I am their senior, am physically more powerful, more technically proficient, know more katas, etc.

[Toptomcat]

This is such a fine point that I suspect even a dyed-in-the-wool Japanese-born, Japanese-trained traditionalist would find very little to get upset about. I suspect the 'right' answer would be that only your seniority from 2006 onward would apply, but it's probably something best resolved by talking either to the other (purely hypothetical at this point) 1st kyu or your sensei.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Toptomcat

[still kicking]

Fearun9033 says:

Personally, I let all the kids in my class who are same belt level go left of me if they want even though I am their senior, am physically more powerful, more technically proficient, know more katas, etc.

Well,Fearun, I think that is a nice humble attitude you have. Actually, since I have been back there was once someone I attained a rank with at the same time (who has since left). As I recall, we weren't sure who should stand to the left of who, so we took turns deferring to one another. Sometimes it seemed like we were actually being competetive about who could be more humble, so it can get complicated!

[Fearun9033]

As I recall, we weren't sure who should stand to the left of who, so we took turns deferring to one another. Sometimes it seemed like we were actually being competetive about who could be more humble, so it can get complicated!

Yes yes! Sometimes doing the right thing can give an undesired outcome! Especially people don't understand what you guys are doing haha.

Give your sensei a laugh and have one stand on the shoulder of the other next time.

[Lupin1]

Give your sensei a laugh and have one stand on the shoulder of the other next time.

Haha. But just to specify, maybe he should have the kid stand on his shoulders...

We don't line up in the adult class, but when I was in the kid class, the rule was to line up by belts and anything within that belt didn't matter (all 5th kyus, etc were considered equal for lining up purposes). Usually we didn't care who was ahead of who unless we were the highest rank there that night and one of us got to be the senior student and bow to the sensei and tell everyone to bow and stuff, and then we got into little arguments about who would get to do that, which usually resulted in an agreement to switch off. But besides the fact that it went by belt with the lowest to the back right, the details didn't really matter.

[ninjanurse]

In our school it goes Rank, Time in grade, Age (under 16/over 16), Portfolio (experience). Experience can be interpreted in many ways but generally implies previous shodan ranking in another or similar style. In most cases all the other rules must be satisfied before experience applies. The only sorting within a rank that relates to skill is traditionally reserved for the position of "the" sempai (as opposed to the highest ranking person of the day).

[usc96]

In our underbelt class we just lined up by rank. Within each rank, the line up was pretty much whoever gets to/wants the spot first. There is no seniority within each rank, though some deference is given if one member of your rank has been in that rank for sometime (for example, if you just moved to 2nd kyu and one of the other 2nd kyus is about to test for 1st kyu, that person might get the more senior line up placement if he wants it.

In our black belt classes, we just line up. No distinction is given to higher dan levels during the line up.

I have to ask, how did you go from being a black belt and instructor to being a white belt with a 4+ year timeline in the same school?

[Chitsu]

To me, the importance of the position you stand in the dojo is something that has taken a wrong turn somewhere along the line - a lot like belt ranking etc.

Whatever happened to just walking the line, keeping your head down and getting on with the job of learning.

I'd rather stand in the “janitor’s cupboard” of a good dojo - than at the front of a poor one.

Chitsu

[still kicking]

Quoting Chitsu:

To me, the importance of the position you stand in the dojo is something that has taken a wrong turn somewhere along the line - a lot like belt ranking etc.

Whatever happened to just walking the line, keeping your head down and getting on with the job of learning.

I'd rather stand in the “janitor’s cupboard” of a good dojo - than at the front of a poor one.

Well, I was afraid that people would take it that way. To me it is really not about the importance of whatever miniscule amount of increased status might be implied by standing to the left of someone who attained a rank at exactly the same time. The point is, according to my understanding of Japanese ettiquette, there is a proper way to do things. A big part of it is to make things go smoothly and to have order, so that everyone feels comfortable and knows exactly what is expected. If everyone just lines up "wherever", and some days I stand in one place and some days I stand in another, to me that seems like an American or western thing. With my martial arts training I have come to enjoy the order, which can also be interpreted as rigidity, I suppose, of doing things "just so". If you think it's rigid to have to line up by strict hierarchy, try taking iaido some time! There are such precise ways to do everything, how you line up, how you walk in, how you fold your clothes, everything. I find it very difficult to make my western self to conform to all of this order, yet I enjoy the discipline of trying to. Anyway... of course we are all equal as humans, regardless.