10,000 kicks: useless or not?

[joesteph]

I, in my early foolish years, complained to my sensei that nothing we did looked "cool". He told me something I would never forget:

Yes, all these moves are nothing but basics. However, once you have mastered these basics, is there really need for anything flashier?

And I find this very true! . . .

And don't forget, without setting a good and deep foundation (mastering basics), how would you expect a tall building to be stable?

My teacher is away visiting family, and her teacher has taken over our classes recently. There've been just three kicks that she's concentrated on with us, the front kick, roundhouse, and the back kick. It's not just the firing off of the kicks, but the execution includes rapid return. She's also had us work at chaining them, and so it's been firing off, returning the leg, firing off the next (different) one, etc. Her focus has been a combo of doing it right and speed. Although she's explained about receiving points in tournaments, these three are just about all one needs in an actual altercation.

When it comes to the "flashy" kicks, the younger set has a blast with them. I say good for them. Let them have fun. Let them enjoy themselves. So long as when we practice self-defense exercises it's explained and they understand that the basic kicks are the most practical, then they're being taught right.

BTW, for me, a jump kick doesn't go anywhere when it comes to altitude, but it does work for me when it's a hop and I want to cover distance. As for spinning kicks . . . well . . . middle-agers like me get dizzy pretty quickly.

[JAKEHE3078]

I just cant belive somebody has not said this yet. If someone practices a kick 10,000 times, does not mean its a good kick. A person can easily practice something over and over again, it does not mean they are practicing it correctly. Poor practice makes for poor technique. Perfect practice makes perfect. So, no I do not fear someone because they have practiced a kick 10,000 times. What I fear is someone who understands what they are doing and has practiced a dozen times correctly.

[still kicking]

Quoting JAKEHE3078:

Poor practice makes for poor technique. Perfect practice makes perfect.

I would take the 10,000 kicks saying to mean that the 10,000 kicks had been practiced with guidance from a good teacher, and with understanding and good form! Of course if you practice them badly you will learn them badly, but it is better to practice a kick well 10,000 times than to practice a kick well 12 times!

[tonydee]

Back in the early '90s I met up with a black belt from another taekwondo school for a bit of training. He'd been at it as many years as I had, in his case smallish classes with a very hands-on and capable master instructor some 18 hours a week. His school drilled untelegraphed movement and reaction times more than mine, and he was so fast (while still plenty strong enough) that if I tried to close the gap to attack he'd consistently jam me up with side kick. With 20kg over me, I'd be pushed back a bit more than him. I just couldn't get past that side kick. I remember looking at his guard, and thinking he wasn't protecting the side of his head - it I could just reach a spinning hooking kick there. A bit exasperated, I thought I'd give it a try, but of course the side kick was there even more easily than before. Reaching for the more complex move was a mistake - a distraction - which he evidently recognised as futile, as he broke off the sparring for another chat.

One of the things I took away from that day was the idea that techniques have a natural ordering: from the guard, the fastest line to the target is incredible important, and it doesn't matter if you seem to be vulnerable in some particular way as long as you're ready with a simple, strong strike that you can get in quicker.

(Strange though it may sound, that was news to me because I'd always sought a guarding position from which I could comfortably wait for and block any attack, without having to grab, joint lock or trap to limit their future movement. I now know that such a thing isn't sustainable: you have to be ready to go on the offensive to keep a really good opponent out, as if they know they don't have to be ready to defend themselves their attacking opportunities multiply hugely. If you disagree, find a professional boxer physically in better shape than you, get in a tight space with them, tell them you're only going to block, and see how long until you get hit. They'll soon find a sequence that just takes too much manoeuvring to counter, and tire you out, even if that means leaving their head totally undefended while they do it. Good defensive technique alone isn't enough unless the other side's constrained by the threat of your counter-attacks, or your style's (often tacit) habitual movements. The latter can actually be very influential - for example, wing chun masters can often sustain a purely defensive strategy against another wing chun stylist, who's far more likely to engage is a way that's susceptible to this than someone from another style. Or watch

- Nakamura-sensei is probably unaware that his movements are artificially restrained, partly because he accepts Higaonna's dominance, but he's repeatedly punch inside Higaonna's guard at a predictable pace and height - for example, a slightly hooked straightish punch would make the decision to block inwards vs outwards far more complicated, or throwing enough of a punch to draw the guard then circling slightly while changing to a ridge hand is more effective than completing a technique that you know is being blocked)

Anyway, it's the exploration of this space - simple direct techniques, their relative merits, untelegraphed movement, footwork and timing, feints - in which the martial artist must excel. The basic, simple, fast techniques are the bedrock of that exploration. That takes far more dedicated, focused practice than rattling off 10,000 of each technique....

Time spent on fancy kicks is a distraction. Most worrying to me is that the generation that's interested in "extreme martial arts" stunt kicks have to focus on a tight airborne spin of the hips, and they use that angle and body mechanics for all manner of movements irrespective of appropriateness. Even watching some of the tournaments on youtube - the kata and weapons contents - all the techniques are tainted by the twisting motion needed for flashy spinning kicks, rather than the spinning motion that's needed for power generation and quick follow through/up motions and footwork. They're very different requirements.

Cheers,

Tony

[still kicking]

Awesome post, tonydee. I'll have to chew on that one for a while!

[ps1]

It matters more how you practiced the kicks. If you do 10000 kicks in the air, you'll be great at kicking the air. If you do 10000 kicks in the air, in timing drills, against opponents, into a heavy bag and so on...you may be pretty good at using that kick.

[Toptomcat]

Tonydee is a man who knows what he's talking about.

[joesteph]

[T]echniques have a natural ordering: from the guard, the fastest line to the target is incredible important, and it doesn't matter if you seem to be vulnerable in some particular way as long as you're ready with a simple, strong strike that you can get in quicker. . . .

Anyway, it's the exploration of this space - simple direct techniques, their relative merits, untelegraphed movement, footwork and timing, feints - in which the martial artist must excel. The basic, simple, fast techniques are the bedrock of that exploration.

Well said, Tony.

Time spent on fancy kicks is a distraction. Most worrying to me is that the generation that's interested in "extreme martial arts" stunt kicks have to focus on a tight airborne spin of the hips, and they use that angle and body mechanics for all manner of movements irrespective of appropriateness . . . [such as] the spinning motion that's needed for power generation and quick follow through/up motions and footwork.

One of the freshmen I taught last year had earned her black belt in TKD while in grade school, and then became interested in Extreme Martial Arts during eighth grade. It continued into ninth grade, when she was my student, but then she dropped martial arts altogether in favor of joining dance troupe, a year-long co-curricular activity.

I wonder if those who choose to concentrate on XMA are more interested in a "fine arts" interpretation of martial arts than its self-defense applications, even though they very likely started training with the latter emphasis.

[sensei8]

Back in the early '90s I met up with a black belt from another taekwondo school for a bit of training. He'd been at it as many years as I had, in his case smallish classes with a very hands-on and capable master instructor some 18 hours a week. His school drilled untelegraphed movement and reaction times more than mine, and he was so fast (while still plenty strong enough) that if I tried to close the gap to attack he'd consistently jam me up with side kick. With 20kg over me, I'd be pushed back a bit more than him. I just couldn't get past that side kick. I remember looking at his guard, and thinking he wasn't protecting the side of his head - it I could just reach a spinning hooking kick there. A bit exasperated, I thought I'd give it a try, but of course the side kick was there even more easily than before. Reaching for the more complex move was a mistake - a distraction - which he evidently recognised as futile, as he broke off the sparring for another chat.

One of the things I took away from that day was the idea that techniques have a natural ordering: from the guard, the fastest line to the target is incredible important, and it doesn't matter if you seem to be vulnerable in some particular way as long as you're ready with a simple, strong strike that you can get in quicker.

(Strange though it may sound, that was news to me because I'd always sought a guarding position from which I could comfortably wait for and block any attack, without having to grab, joint lock or trap to limit their future movement. I now know that such a thing isn't sustainable: you have to be ready to go on the offensive to keep a really good opponent out, as if they know they don't have to be ready to defend themselves their attacking opportunities multiply hugely. If you disagree, find a professional boxer physically in better shape than you, get in a tight space with them, tell them you're only going to block, and see how long until you get hit. They'll soon find a sequence that just takes too much manoeuvring to counter, and tire you out, even if that means leaving their head totally undefended while they do it. Good defensive technique alone isn't enough unless the other side's constrained by the threat of your counter-attacks, or your style's (often tacit) habitual movements. The latter can actually be very influential - for example, wing chun masters can often sustain a purely defensive strategy against another wing chun stylist, who's far more likely to engage is a way that's susceptible to this than someone from another style. Or watch

- Nakamura-sensei is probably unaware that his movements are artificially restrained, partly because he accepts Higaonna's dominance, but he's repeatedly punch inside Higaonna's guard at a predictable pace and height - for example, a slightly hooked straightish punch would make the decision to block inwards vs outwards far more complicated, or throwing enough of a punch to draw the guard then circling slightly while changing to a ridge hand is more effective than completing a technique that you know is being blocked)

Anyway, it's the exploration of this space - simple direct techniques, their relative merits, untelegraphed movement, footwork and timing, feints - in which the martial artist must excel. The basic, simple, fast techniques are the bedrock of that exploration. That takes far more dedicated, focused practice than rattling off 10,000 of each technique....

Time spent on fancy kicks is a distraction. Most worrying to me is that the generation that's interested in "extreme martial arts" stunt kicks have to focus on a tight airborne spin of the hips, and they use that angle and body mechanics for all manner of movements irrespective of appropriateness. Even watching some of the tournaments on youtube - the kata and weapons contents - all the techniques are tainted by the twisting motion needed for flashy spinning kicks, rather than the spinning motion that's needed for power generation and quick follow through/up motions and footwork. They're very different requirements.

Cheers,

Tony

Tony,

I enjoyed your post....very solid...and I thank you for it!

[tonydee]

Seems bizarre to acknowledge the appreciation shown, but rude not to, so I'll do it quick: thanks... . I'm sure a little positive feedback now and then helps many of us keep motivated to think hard and post to the best of our ability. I also appreciate the thought and effort put in to the forums by the readership... keeps me coming back for my dose, and gives me somewhere to come when things start rattling around in my mind and I want to run them past people from other arts and backgrounds. Cheers.