are all white belts the same?

[Blade96]

maybe you can help me with a argument i had with a dude on another forum.......

in a post of mine, on another forum i called myself an 'advanced white belt' to show that i didnt just start, that i started shotokan back in september and i learned my white belt stuff and am just waiting for my grading while practicing it.

This guy called me out on it and said he didnt wanna be rude but accused me pretty much of wanting to think of myself as 'special' That's not what i meant and no one who knows me would ever in this lifetime think of me as cocky and egotistical. its just not in my nature. as i said i was simply distinguishing myself from a white belt who just started shotokan an knows nothing about it. He said there's no difference and a white belt is just a white belt and all white belts are the same. i said they're not. Maybe we wear the same kind and color belt but what he said is like comparing a kindergartener who just started kindergarten knowing nothing, and a kindergartener who learned ABC's and counting and is just going to enter grade one. They're not the same. yeah they're both kindergarteners but one has learned the kindergarten stuff and is ready to advance. I told him my senseis would say the same thing.

do i have a point? does he? do you think I'm right or wrong or is he right or wrong?

[Kuma]

I'm going ot have to go with the other guy. In kindergarten you'll have a child who may be more advanced than the others, but in the grand scheme of things he or she is still a kid in kindergarten. I've been a 6th kyu in Kyokushin for several years now and still would not consider myself an "advanced" 6th kyu.

If you think of it in military terms, a Sergeant (E-5), despite having maybe several years more experience than other Sergeants, is still a Sergeant.

[DWx]

I think you could argue it either way. You both have a point really although I think I agree more with the other guy.

A white belt that has learnt their requirements is still a white belt. I don't think you can apply "advanced" to them just because they've learnt what they're supposed to when they're supposed to know it. Advanced kinda does seem to me to suggest something special even though you might not have meant it this way. It would suggest something above and beyond the norm like (using your kindergarten example) a kid who not only knew how to count but could add and subtract already.

Taking still_kicking and Lupin1's experiences from this thread, http://www.karateforums.com/more-about-my-2nd-kyu-vt38001.html , surely they were more advanced than your typically white belt because they'd done it all (and more) before and could remember it.

[Lupin1]

I know a lot of programs that actually have "advanced" as part of their ranking system. So you'd be a white belt and then maybe you'd get a black stripe and be an advanced white belt then you'd be a yellow belt, get a stripe and be an advanced yellow belt, etc. It's written into to their grading system.

As long as you recognize that a white belt is still a white belt, I see nothing wrong with getting more specific. I've said on here a few times that when I was younger I was a 6th kyu but I was close to getting 5th kyu. I say that not because I want to make myself sound better, but because in my school 6th kyu takes a long time and has several kata to learn, so someone near the end spent a lot more time and knows a lot more than someone who just got their 6th kyu. It's a difference of about a year more training. I really don't see the problem with distinguishing between having just started and having a few months experience, as long as it's made clear that an advanced white belt is an advanced WHITE BELT and not an advanced student period. I personally consider black belt the marker of someone becoming an advanced student. Everyone below that is just a beginner-- just different degrees of beginner.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Lupin1

[Blade96]

yeah, i read that thread, and i wouldnt call Lupin your 'typical white belt' either. because she and the other had trained years before.

i'd say yeah im white belt because i havent had my test yet. but i just dont think a white belt is a white belt is a white belt is a white belt. they might all technically have the same rank, because they havent had a test. but some know more in their level than others because they've been there longer. I just dont see all white belts as the same. I wouldnt see Lupin as the same as a white belt who just started for example because she has a background in it (as that higher belt who returned wearing a white belt noticed)

as long as it's made clear that an advanced white belt is an advanced WHITE BELT and not an advanced student period.

Yea.

little white belt. thats all i am. know all my requirements though.

[Kuma]

Speaking frankly Blade, I can see a bit of how he might have seen you thinking you were considering yourself better than the average white belt. I'm sure most of it is not meant in that way, but occasionally you'll post about how you're an excellent student, have been training techniques for quite a while, etc. that could come off to others as acting "cocky" or "egotistical."

Mas Oyama has a great quote: "1,000 days a beginner; 10,000 days an expert." And these are days of training. Train daily for 3 years and you can be considered a beginner. Train daily for almost 30 years and you can consider yourself an expert.

[still kicking]

Lupin1 wrote:

I personally consider black belt the marker of someone becoming an advanced student. Everyone below that is just a beginner-- just different degrees of beginner.

Very well said. And I think most black belts would agree that in some ways we are always beginners, in that there is always more to learn, or new ways of looking at things. I think Sensei8 said it well in another thread -- keep all of this in perspective and just train. Speaking for myself, I feel that I have been being a bit crazy with all of this concern about rank and relative standing in class and in the school. It seems really childish. I'm not saying this in judgement of anyone else, and it's all part of the journey, but yes, a kindegarten kid is still a kindergarten kid, no matter how precocious. When that child is in high school he or she will realize how little they knew in kindergarten, even though they think they are pretty smart now! But really, what difference does it make?

There is a relatively new student in our school who just got her yellow belt (10th kyu). She trained in another school in the same style before, but they did things a little differently, and she is up for working her way through the ranks again with us. She already knows all of the Pinan (Heian) kata, and last night when we reviewing all of the Pinans, she did the more advanced ones with the rest of us while the other people at her level sat out. She is pretty good, but she is still just a yellow belt in our style. Everyone is different. Some yellow belts barely made it, and some are doing 5th kyu kata. As long as you focus on improving what you are supposed to be learning at your current rank, and also have the chance to practice the more advanced stuff sometimes if you know it, life is good!

Anyway -- long winded as usual -- in my opinion it is the wrong focus to be thinking so much about who is better than who, and I for one am going to try to stop it!

[Throwdown0850]

Speaking frankly Blade, I can see a bit of how he might have seen you thinking you were considering yourself better than the average white belt. I'm sure most of it is not meant in that way, but occasionally you'll post about how you're an excellent student, have been training techniques for quite a while, etc. that could come off to others as acting "cocky" or "egotistical."

Mas Oyama has a great quote: "1,000 days a beginner; 10,000 days an expert." And these are days of training. Train daily for 3 years and you can be considered a beginner. Train daily for almost 30 years and you can consider yourself an expert.

I'd have to agree here.

[melfi28]

I agree with you completely. All white belts are not the same. If you have simply not tested yet, and therefore do know a good amount more than a brand new student, or a student coming from another style of martial arts. I have studied many martial arts and when I go to a school to start something new and the sensei knows what I have done, he does normally treat me differently because I know all the basics and alot of the advanced stuff to. I just don't know his specific style, which is why in his style I'm still a white belt.

[Blade96]

Speaking frankly Blade, I can see a bit of how he might have seen you thinking you were considering yourself better than the average white belt. I'm sure most of it is not meant in that way, but occasionally you'll post about how you're an excellent student, have been training techniques for quite a while, etc. that could come off to others as acting "cocky" or "egotistical.

well, most people judge. None of it is meant that way- cocky. Not most of it - NONE. Which is why I generally dont talk to most people in real life. Or online. Because people judge. I aim to be frank to you as well. If people wish to think of me as that, without asking or whatever, I'll tell them what i am.

I actually do NOT have very good self esteem and generally dislike who I am. Because of how people have treated me all through my life they judge me before they get to know me. I really dont think of myself as doing anything good. I am shy and am actually afraid of people because of how i get treated. I am also an abuse survivor. And yet - when i do say something positive about myself - like i'm an excellent student, or I train a technique well or something - and i get called out on it for being egotistical! Not because I necessarily believe it that I say it. Its what my senseis and my nidan said about me and to me. I believe what my Ni Dan and my senseis say because I trust them. but to think of myself as that , as my own thoughts? Uhhhh.

And when i first started in shotokan last year, I was shocked to say the least when people bowed to me and came up to me and said hello (that had never happened before) and generally treat me as one of their own. I was shocked because I can't really imagine anyone feeling a need to show me respect. Because my experiences have generally left me with a big mistrust of people.

I even doubted i was worthy enough to carry the Rainbow Belt here as a member of the month.

When we were doing kiba dachi in class and crossed our legs over and did yoko geri keage, and i said (because i ice skate and took figure skating) that learning to cross your legs over and the crouch is like a kiba dachi and my nidan said 'I didnt know that you taught me something' and I said 'News to me. how could I teach you anything. You're a big NiDan. and I'm just a white belt'

Maybe I need to actually be able to say something positive about myself. DWX's sig speaks to me personally. 'Everything has its beauty but not everyone sees it" I wish I could see much good in me.