Waving kick

[DWx]

Having problems with this kick from the TKD pattern Yoo-Sin. (Its at 1.23 in this video).

I can't seem to be able to do it without coming up out of the stance and over onto the standing leg. Either I end up shifting the weight lots or the kick doesn't come high enough.

I've seen it (or a variant) in some katas so if any Karate guys wanna give some advice that would be great.

[sensei8]

This kick in Karate is called Nami-gaeshi, returning wave kick. And as you've already discovered, it's a very difficult kick to perform. The Karate Kata,Tekki Shodan, utilizes this very kick. Many students incorrectly slap the instep against the inside of the thigh. The foot should travel to the front of the thigh to block of deflect a kicking attack. The Tekki Kata should be practiced assiduously in order to promote flexibility and lower body strength.

To maintain a strong Kiba-dachi, Horse Riding Stance, with accurate posture and to avoid bobbing up-and-down requires much lower body strength. Performing Nami-gaeshi involves raising the sole of the foot in front of the body while being supported by just one foot, requiring great skill and balance. To perform this technique without significantly raising your body is very difficult, so when a beginner can perform this effectively, they will begin to fully appreciate the benefits of this kata.

Some tips that might help:

A) Shorten your stance slightly

B) STRETCH COMPLETELY

C) Keep knees bent

D) Perform drills and the like to develop lower body strength

E) The hips must be well set

Hopefully these tips might help you. So I can help you more exactly, just what difficulties are you having...exactly?

Performing this kick is one thing, but, to truly master it requires a life-time!

[DWx]

Thanks for the info sensei8. I think my problem may be that I'm not doing it fast enough. So to do it fully I either have shift all my weight onto the standing leg or not get the full kick out before landing in the stance again.

Do you have any suggestions of specific drills and exercises to develop the speed and strength?

[sensei8]

Danielle,

You've hit the two main nerve pulses by pointing out "speed"and "strength". Speed of that kick is important to balance, maintained stance 'height', posture, and returning back to the floor. Strength of the supporting leg is important to eliminating the excessive sine wave, maintain balance/posture in the duration of the entire kick, and stabilizing the supporting legs' knee.

Also, lets not forget that completely stretching allows that kick to travel to its correct position, which is in front of the supporting legs thigh. If the leg that's doing the kick isn't stretched entirely, then how can the kick reach its final conclusion? It can't!

There are many drills/exercises of developing and improving speed and strength for this kick. Here are TWO of my most FAVORITE drills/exercises for these two things. They're my favorite because they both get right to the core of what's being sought after.

1) Speed = Ankle weights!!!! It's just that simple. Work the weights up from 3 pounds to 20 pounds....yes...20 pounds! Once a particular weight becomes to 'light' for you, then go up to the next weight. Continue to do this until you can reach the 20 pound weight and then keep doing that weight until it becomes as though it's not even there.

2) Strength = Buddy method!!!! Buddy method is having someone stand on your thighs and hold onto your shoulders for your Buddy's balance while you're maintaining the Kiba-dachi (Horse Riding Stance) stance. While your Buddy (Another student) is STANDING on your thighs for as long as you can tolerate it, then keep increasing the time of having your Buddy standing on your thighs. THEN, while your Buddy is standing on your thighs, WALK forward, side to side, backwards the entire length of the floor no matter where you're doing this exercise at. If you don't have a "Buddy" FIND one! There are drills/exercises that I do when I'm by myself, but, NOTHING works better than HAVING your BUDDY!!!! For by myself...STAY IN YOUR HORSE RIDING STANCE FOR 1 HOUR MINIMUM!!!! Wear something like a weight vest or a back pack full of large disc weights or something that will provide a tasking weight like sand, rocks, or bricks. Remember this one thing...POSTURE! Maintain your posture during these and any drills/exercises at all times!

Try these exercises/drills and in a short time you'll see a noticeable improvement for the best! Don't laugh at them or discount them because they work as barbaric as they might sound.

[DWx]

Thanks a lot Bob.

Also I'm noticing that I sometimes have a tendency to turn the leg over so the heel comes up rather than the side of the foot (if you can picture what I mean). I guess that would be just a case of repetition to solve that problem?

[tonydee]

Also I'm noticing that I sometimes have a tendency to turn the leg over so the heel comes up rather than the side of the foot (if you can picture what I mean). I guess that would be just a case of repetition to solve that problem?

The only way I could find to do that was by rotating my torso/hips towards the lifted foot. You might find yourself do that if you're overly conscious of pushing off the foot you're going to lift, psyching yourself up for the big effort. Instead, relax, keep the torso square, and think about the application (main ones being deflection of an incoming front kick during the upward swing, or jamming down on top of kick to the groin on the return). Sometimes the "secret" is not to try too hard, keep the movements minimalist and "light" so you can "float" long enough to whip that foot up and down again. With hips kept square, I can't make that heel lift first even if I want to, though you may be more flexible.

I notice in Choi's encyclopaedia (Vol 13, page 215), the application is shown with the kicking heel just forward of the grounded knee, whereas in the static images the sole of the foot is brought up to touch the knee. Always annoys me when applications and recommended form don't coincide, and I always execute the form that that matches the application. If there's another application for the documented form, I'll switch when I learn it, but there's no point practising something that you can't use.

Reminds me of the final reverse knife hand block in Po-eun, which is shown with the hands further forward that a line through the knees: I want that block to deflect the kick safely past my knees, and am not about to stop it where it would only just touch but not actually deflect a kick from 45 degrees, which is where I understand the attack to be coming from.

Lots of small frustrations in following a pattern from an art you don't quite believe in!

Cheers,

Tony

[mindsedgeblade]

First Off: ahahhahahahaha!!!!! Bouncy, Bouncy, Bouncy! First time I've seen someone exagerrate the "sine wave" that much. Makes me glad I don't have to do it.

Second: It looks like something I do in sparring all the time. Not the flappy foot thing, but pulling the knee and shin up to block a kick. I suppose you could use it in an inside to outside motion as a block from the horsestance.

[DWx]

First Off: ahahhahahahaha!!!!! Bouncy, Bouncy, Bouncy! First time I've seen someone exagerrate the "sine wave" that much. Makes me glad I don't have to do it.

In Mr Suska's defence, that series of videos is from a seminar where he taught all of the patterns from start to finish. He doesn't do them quite like that if you look at any other footage of him. Everything is slowed down and exaggerated, but because of that they are the easiest vids I have seen to learn the sequence or point out a move. To see how he really does it, search for any of his competition videos, either from the Euros or the Worlds, you'll see that its less pronounced. IMO it shouldn't be done like that. I personally barely come out of the stance, just enough to facilitate the hip movement.

Bit of a late reply here:

I notice in Choi's encyclopaedia (Vol 13, page 215), the application is shown with the kicking heel just forward of the grounded knee, whereas in the static images the sole of the foot is brought up to touch the knee. Always annoys me when applications and recommended form don't coincide, and I always execute the form that that matches the application. If there's another application for the documented form, I'll switch when I learn it, but there's no point practising something that you can't use.

I'm not sure what's in the full encyclopaedia, I only have the condensed version but on page 314 of edition. 4 there is an alternate application of an opponent going to stamp on your foot from the side so you raise your leg out the way by doing the kick them stamp back down on them. Having said that though, in this version of the book the only full facing static images still show the kick in front of the centre line rather than the grounded knee. I've also always been told to do it this way as well.

Lots of small frustrations in following a pattern from an art you don't quite believe in!

Lots of things frustrate me too but the great thing is things are being refined all the time. At least in the ITF I am in things are getting changed slightly all the time back to more practical methods all the time. I think part of the problem was that it was supposed to be so radically different from Karate that I think sometimes things were just changed for the sake of being different without solid science or experience behind them.

[joesteph]

Having problems with this kick from the TKD pattern Yoo-Sin. (Its at 1.23 in this video).

In Mr Suska's defence, that series of videos is from a seminar where he taught all of the patterns from start to finish. . . . Everything is slowed down and exaggerated, but because of that they are the easiest vids I have seen to learn the sequence or point out a move.

I saw that the topic was reopened since its original January post, Danielle, and when I looked at the video, I liked it because I could follow it--which is what your most recent post is explaining. When I was learning new forms, I bought the DVD and slowed it down using the DVD player function.

I imagine you've gotten that kick down by now. Was it mainly by practicing it repeatedly or by specific exercises?

[DWx]

I imagine you've gotten that kick down by now. Was it mainly by practicing it repeatedly or by specific exercises?

Sort of. Still working on it. My trainings been kinda patchy what with being away at uni and I've tried to work on all 3 of the different forms for this belt equally (only graded last October). I think it was shortly after this topic that my instructor tried to teach the whole class this for my benefit and he pretty much reiterated what's already been said. Once exercise I did find useful was to hold onto a heavy bag and try to kick the bottom properly with my foot. Could hold my body weight off the grounded leg using the bag and then gradually hold it less as the kick got better.