Aganst many?

[MMA_Jim]

In the very first UFC, eye gouges, strikes to the groin, and biting were fined- but still allowed.

Those that broke those rules would be fined $5000- but it was a $50000 winner take all tournament. In fact, Gerard Gordeau aggressively bit Royce Gracie when Gracie closed the distance with him. It went by almost unnoticed because such tactics dont do much in the way of a real fight. This is the reason when you watch that fight (you can see it on Royce's highlight video as well) that Royce did not let go of the rear naked choke on Gordeau when Gordeau began to tap.

Yes this is the same Gordeau that eye gouged Yuki Nakai so severely that he is permanently blind in one eye. During that same fight, Gordeau also sunk his teeth into Nakai's neck. Contrary to what so many RBSD people would tell you- he was unable to tear his throat out, as human teeth are very frail and unable to penetrate very significantly. Bear in mind that Gordeau also outweighed Nakai by 100 lbs (Gordeau was 235lbs to Nakai's 135lbs) and even with the use of dirty tactics, Nakai submitted him.

Groin strikes occur still in UFC- wild illegal the ref has to spot the infraction. This occurred the second time Frank Trigg and Matt Hughes fought. Trigg caught Hughes with a knee dead on in the groin- cant get much more than that. Hughes buckled and tried to get away for the proper ref stoppage- but the ref didnt see it and the match continued. After about 30 seconds, Hughes was able to reverse Trigg from the bottom, pick him up with a double leg, run him clear across the cage and slam him to the ground where he proceeded to take Triggs back and choke him out- again.

[tallgeese]

The point that I'm saying is that, using your example, after the knee Huges was off his game. He had to back away, ect. To me, it's a street tactic that produced a good result.

Now, because Trigg couldn't captalize doesn't mean that the weapon would not have served it's purpose on the street. That movement back could have very well produced an escape.

I'm not arguing that things that illegal in the UFC will stop or win every fight, but that some of them can produce results that are advantageous when used properly in the realm of street level sd.

[MMA_Jim]

The point that I'm saying is that, using your example, after the knee Huges was off his game. He had to back away, ect. To me, it's a street tactic that produced a good result.

Now, because Trigg couldn't captalize doesn't mean that the weapon would not have served it's purpose on the street. That movement back could have very well produced an escape.

I'm not arguing that things that illegal in the UFC will stop or win every fight, but that some of them can produce results that are advantageous when used properly in the realm of street level sd.

Hughes backed up because he was expected a separation between the two by the ref, who unfortunately missed the infraction. I've been hit in the groin on a few occassions while training, and I dont normally wear a cup while training.

It'd be absurb of me to say that the strike to the groin doesnt hurt- of course it does, I know first hand- Im a guy. The point Im trying to make is that it proves to be no more effective (at best) and in my experience less effective that other options from the same positions.

Through my experience training, I've been dropped with hard crosses to the face, solid body shots to the ribs, liver kicks, cut kicks, but a groin shot has yet to produce the same results.

Guys know from before they reach puberty that getting kicked in the groin hurts- girls know right around the same age that kicking boys in the groin hurts them. Clawing the eyes is something thats common sense and you hear EVERYONE respond with when asked what to do in a serious life or death situation. So, with this in mind comprehend that thousands of (violent) rapes still occur every single year to women with the simple knowledge stated above- do you think these women didnt try to fight back?

They do not work as well as people put them out to be- it you hit it fine, but if you rely on it you're very unlikely to produce results.

[tallgeese]

The reason those attacks happen and are or are not defended agaisnt has more to do with mindset and awareness often times than tactics. That's a whole seperate topic.

I too have been dropped by those shots you talk about. I've also been dropped by knees to the groin. I've also walked thorouh knees to the groin and the shots you've mentioned as well.

I'm NOT saying rely on them. Heck, I don't rely on anything to actaully do what it's purported to do. It's why combinations were invented.

I don't know how else to spell out my position and maybe we're just worlds apart on this. They are tools, no better or worse than any other. Maybe more or less valid given the situation one might be in. If you'll never use them, fine. Don't drill them. But too many people have actually used some of these tertiary items too many times to discount them entirely.

My favorite example of this is small joint manipulation. Lots of people in the MMA age say they are useless. However, I've found them very useful on a professional level (law enforcement) for removing resisting suspects from automobiles, handcuffing, and controlling limbs that contain a weapon where all else is of secondary concern. Now, will I use them in situations beyond this? Maybe, but not often. The point is, to throw them away would take away a tool that I'm proficient at that helps me do my job against fully resistive subjects.

If you've got a tool, espically ones that even you admit are simple and highly engrained in everyones mind, why make no use of it or discard it. If there is a question of willingless to employ at full speed, then it's a mindset issue. There are plenty of these as well, but again it's a different topic.

[ps1]

Is there any practical grappling defense arts that are actually very affective against multiple attackers?

Yes, Standing Up in Base. Get off the ground and get the heck out of there.

[JiuJitsuNation]

This is a great thread that everyone should give a read. Everything by MMA Jim is well put and factual.

[brickshooter]

Is it possible that the early MMA groin attacks seemed ineffective because all fighers wore a titanium cup and fighters were punching the cup?

I don't know about others, but I can withstand a full kick from the front angle with my cup as long as it doesn't shift on me. Come to think of it, it's more effective if my opponent grab the cup and pull it to one side, rupturing everything underneath.