Aganst many?

[MMA_Jim]

Ask yourself the same question about standup styles of fighting...

This is a dead horse that is beaten too many times "BJJ cant work against multiple opponents"

BJJ never claimed that it could. The irony is that all these traditional styles that claimed they could proved unable to defeat a single opponent when paired up in the first UFC. If you cant even defeat one' date=' dont speak to me about any theories on defeating many.

So in short, grab a knife or get a gun [/quote']

With any art you are essentially at a disadvantage when against multiple people. I also don't think a particular 'art' claimed anything, the fighters did. There are good and bad practitioners in all arts.

Agreed

Also people may disagree with me but most street fights don't last 3 rounds of 5 mins.

This is because most street fights dont have two professionally trained fighters- the reason why fights go on for so long in UFC is because the fighters are so evenly matched.

In the street a fight is generally over within a few shots, or it should be your tools are unlimited. The UFC is a good measure of skill but practically it is still limited. Some of the best weapons are not available. Fighting for your life is very different to organized competition.

The majority of rules in UFC are set so as to be bias against grappling. What works in the cage against a professional fighter works EVEN BETTER against a non trained fighter. A street fight, or fight for your life, is actually easier than a cage fight (from my imput, I've done all three). Any street fight I've been in that didnt involve multiple assailants was over in 5-10 seconds- and this goes way back to the day when I was merely a blue belt in jiu jitsu. The ones that had more than one person to deal with natrually lasted longer, but no single attacker lasted more than 15 seconds of being a problem before being choked unconcious. This is not a testemant to myself as a tough guy but rather a testemant to jiu jitsu (and the multiple opponents scenario Im referring to also has multiple people on MY side as well).

Now, the biggest difference to me between a street fight and a cage fight is that I dont get paid to fight outside the ring and I get nothing from doing it- I dont want to do it because I dont want to break my hand, or risk injuring anything else the will prevent me from fighting in the cage. Aside from that, other differences are:

-Your opponent often has no idea what hes doing

-There are no weight classes

-you can be held liable if you hurt this guy too much

Street fights are over in a few shots because the people involved often have NO CLUE how to fight (despite so many claiming that they do, regardless of the training they may or may not have). Most people involved in a street fight have no idea what theyre doing, have no stamina, dont have bodies conditioned for fighting, etc etc. Its over in a few shots because when people are swinging wild haymakers at each other, neither knows how to keep their hands up, and neither is accustomed to taking a hit, one connection is usually the end of the fight.

Have no illusions- cage fights are 3- 5 min rounds and boxing matches are 12- 3min rounds- but either fighter will make short work of a "street fighter" in a matter of seconds.

[MMA_Jim]

I think that a Aikido practioner would say that their art is effective against multiple attackers as evident by observing an Aikido "master" in action. Having said that, I'm not an Aikido "master"/practitioner.

But I can see that Aikido has effective techniques with their multiple attacker scenarios. Moving this way and that way, causing attackers to run into themselves, twisting and tying attackers up amoungst themselves, and allowing the attackers to use their own energies against themselves.

How many Aikido "masters" have you seen in action?

Aikido runs really beautiful demos in the eyes of people that have no idea what they're watching. The "Uke's" (if I used that word properly...) often run wildly in (aiding in momentum for the "master" to throw them) use unrealistic attacks (large leaping punches that throw them off balance) and also wait their turn to attack during the demo.

Over-compliance is the biggest problem I see in Aikido demos- an "attacker" often goes flying through the air without the defender even making contact with him- such as this demo:

Over compliant attackers again in this reel- notice how they all attack one at a time, are immobolized after only one counter (be it a punch, wrist lock, throw, etc) and are always running full speed at the demonstrater giving plenty of momentum for a throw that looks easy.

Im not knocking aikido- Im simply pointing out how easily it is to see through a demo of any sport- sometimes its better just to watch that style in action against a resisting opponent to see how well it fares

[Jay]

MMA Jim. Im not going to quote you as your post is very long. However I am just going to say that on the street regardless if there are two professional fighters going at it one should have still taken the other out very quickly due to the things they are able to do that in competition they cannot.

[MMA_Jim]

MMA Jim. Im not going to quote you as your post is very long. However I am just going to say that on the street regardless if there are two professional fighters going at it one should have still taken the other out very quickly due to the things they are able to do that in competition they cannot.

Such as what? The reason fighters were initially put in cages was to keep certain people from running away.

What significant changes occur that should lead someone to end a fight so quickly on the street as opposed to the cage? This of course is still assuming unarmed combat, as the vast majority of street fights are.

I understand that you think a fight should be ended quickly in theory but there is a significant different between theory and practice.

[sensei8]

I think that a Aikido practioner would say that their art is effective against multiple attackers as evident by observing an Aikido "master" in action. Having said that, I'm not an Aikido "master"/practitioner.

But I can see that Aikido has effective techniques with their multiple attacker scenarios. Moving this way and that way, causing attackers to run into themselves, twisting and tying attackers up amoungst themselves, and allowing the attackers to use their own energies against themselves.

How many Aikido "masters" have you seen in action?

Aikido runs really beautiful demos in the eyes of people that have no idea what they're watching. The "Uke's" (if I used that word properly...) often run wildly in (aiding in momentum for the "master" to throw them) use unrealistic attacks (large leaping punches that throw them off balance) and also wait their turn to attack during the demo.

Over-compliance is the biggest problem I see in Aikido demos- an "attacker" often goes flying through the air without the defender even making contact with him- such as this demo:

Over compliant attackers again in this reel- notice how they all attack one at a time, are immobolized after only one counter (be it a punch, wrist lock, throw, etc) and are always running full speed at the demonstrater giving plenty of momentum for a throw that looks easy.

Im not knocking aikido- Im simply pointing out how easily it is to see through a demo of any sport- sometimes its better just to watch that style in action against a resisting opponent to see how well it fares

I've seen a few...Aikido masters that is.

My views on a compliant Uke in any martial arts demo are well known, both here in KF and outside of KF. A compliant Uke is akin to a professional wrestler who goes with the flow and to provide a good show. I'm not easily impressed by someone [Practitioner of any martial art] who's so effortlessly defeats their attacker(s) in demos. Why? In any martial arts demo, the Uke will just stand there while the "master" has his/her way. That's not reality to me. Many martial arts demo's provide a sense of false securities, this isn't for me, and this isn't Shindokan!

Therefore, I concur with your post.

I've cross-trained with several Aikido instructors over these past many, many, many years. While I might have tried to resist their defenses and the like, I didn't resist long or I was going to pay for it in a very painful way. I wasn't a compliant Uke by any imagination, but, I've been on many receiving ends of their convincing arguments.

Why are martial arts demos tailored as they are? I don't know, but, I can't stand to watch them during their choregraphed act.

[Jay]

MMA Jim. Im not going to quote you as your post is very long. However I am just going to say that on the street regardless if there are two professional fighters going at it one should have still taken the other out very quickly due to the things they are able to do that in competition they cannot.

Such as what? The reason fighters were initially put in cages was to keep certain people from running away.

What significant changes occur that should lead someone to end a fight so quickly on the street as opposed to the cage? This of course is still assuming unarmed combat, as the vast majority of street fights are.

I understand that you think a fight should be ended quickly in theory but there is a significant different between theory and practice.

Very true, theory and practice are very different and of course you must prepare in case you are unable to take them out quickly. I'm not saying that every fight will end quickly but the objective would be to take them out as soon as possible which could be enhanced by the following factors.

Factors which could shorten the fight.

Hard Ground

Shoes

Walls

Eye Gouging

Groin Strikes

Throat Strikes and Grabbing

Finger Manipulations

Stomping on a downed opponent.

Strikes to the back of the head

Hair manipulation

Biting

Maiming

[MMA_Jim]

MMA Jim. Im not going to quote you as your post is very long. However I am just going to say that on the street regardless if there are two professional fighters going at it one should have still taken the other out very quickly due to the things they are able to do that in competition they cannot.

Such as what? The reason fighters were initially put in cages was to keep certain people from running away.

What significant changes occur that should lead someone to end a fight so quickly on the street as opposed to the cage? This of course is still assuming unarmed combat, as the vast majority of street fights are.

I understand that you think a fight should be ended quickly in theory but there is a significant different between theory and practice.

Very true, theory and practice are very different and of course you must prepare in case you are unable to take them out quickly. I'm not saying that every fight will end quickly but the objective would be to take them out as soon as possible which could be enhanced by the following factors.

Factors which could shorten the fight.

Hard Ground

Shoes

Walls

Eye Gouging

Groin Strikes

Throat Strikes and Grabbing

Finger Manipulations

Stomping on a downed opponent.

Strikes to the back of the head

Hair manipulation

Biting

Maiming

All of what you mentioned has been legal or has occurred during mixed martial arts matches since being highly publicized (1990's+).

A hard ground doesnt do anything except hurt a little more after the fact- you dont conciously feel the difference when youre in a fight until afterwards (unless, of course we start speaking of takedowns and slams, which do just fine ending fights themselves)

Shoes were used in early MMA- all it really does is offer a little extra striking surface. In that respect, it would help hasten fights on average (due to extra striking surface and not breaking ones feet) but it would hardly be significant.

Walls= cages

Eye gouging occurred often during early MMA events

Biting occurred sometimes in early MMA events

Groin strikes occurred often in early MMA events

None of these proved effective in ending the fight- certainly a solid punch to the face or elbow proved significantly MORE effective. While the things above could work, what it already used works much much better.

Throat strikes were very legal in early MMA- they proved to be very ineffective and impractical in MMA. I have no idea why there is even a restriction against them, other than many of the rules being developed by people in the boxing world who know nothing about MMA...

Finger manipulations occurred very frequently in early MMA- they dont stop fights at all. Many fighters broke their hands when gloves werent worn in early MMA events- if they can break their hands and still fight/throw a punch, what makes you think a little thing like a broken

finger is going to stand in their way?

Stomping a downed opponent is legal in Japan and Brazil (should be legal in the US too). Theres something about kicking a guy when hes down that just irks the boxing officials and keeps them from allowing it.

Strikes to the back of the head CAN be effective- one must be proficient enough in grappling to be able to get to the back in the first place.

(i.e. an elbow strike to the head to stop a takedown is not a good example of ending a fight quickly, because its a weak strike that doesnt produce much power or have much effect. Taking someones back and dropping elbows on their spine, on the other hand, has a very good effect)

Hair manipulation occurred in early UFC's as well- one must also have long hair for this to be an issue.

Maiming = ?

[Jay]

Very Interesting MMA Jim.

I actually had no idea such things were allowed. I mean eye strikes and groin kicks?

Are you talking about very early ufc here or another organization? because I really want to check out some of these matches.

I take it this was back in the day when everyone's 'styles' were being tested again one another.

[tallgeese]

Early UFCs were much more rule free. Strikes to the eyes were never allowed, but hair pulling and groin striking were in. YOu didn't see it alot, but Keith Hackney did pound a guy into submission by upper cutting him to the groins several times while on the ground. I think small joint manips might have been as well, but I never remember seeing them get used.

Hair pulling did change the complexion of a fight or two early on in the game in the World Combat Championships when some one go a handful of hair and drove a guys head to the mat and pinned it in place. Then proceeded to stop on it or knee it or such shile it was immobile.

[gzk]

In UFC 4 Keith Hackney beat Joe Son by submission due to groin strikes (as mentioned), having used grappling to achieve a somewhat dominant position (he back-trips Son as Son attempts a standing guillotine; Son effectively keeps himself in a kind of side control by hanging on to the guillotine when he has no leverage) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4iZ-NEz-mg

Wanderlei Silva has been noted for using soccer kicks and stomps when the rules allowed it when he fought in Pride in Japan and various Vale Tudo promotions in Brazil. Here's a particularly brutal example against Mike Van Arsdale in an International Vale Tudo Championship fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uddB2L-KGf0

Gerard Gordeau illegally eye-gouged Yuki Nakai in a Vale Tudo Japan fight and blinded Nakai permanently in one eye. But he still lost - Nakai made him tap to a heel hook. It's not on Youtube but it is on the Rickson Gracie documentary called "Choke".