Aganst many?

[circa02]

Is there any practical grappling defense arts that are actually very affective against multiple attackers?

[tallgeese]

I love BJJ. I've loved grappling even before I took up it's study. However, if you're on the ground agaisnt multiple attackers, you're at a disadvantage. A big one.

I came ot of a JJJ based art. Good tools, but again, if you're working any kind of joint manipulation on one guy your at a disadantage agasint the other three who are punching you in the back of the head.

Of course, the arguement can be made that the same is true when you're punching one guy on your feet and his buddies are ganging up on your flanks and back.

Tough all the way around. I sugest retreat and/or escalation of weaponry.

Still, it's good to be versed on teh ground because sometimes, and by that I mean often, things won't go as planned. So you could go to run, trip and have one dude jump on your back. Better have a plan and you'll only develop that by training in a grappling art.

On that, the better the grappling school you're at the more you'll learn and the more you'll be able to integrate. I'd look at what's in your area and what you do already, see where there are holes and decide what best will fill them.

[Jay]

Not really.

You really should be proficient in all ranges.

Grappling arts have their place. However against multiple attackers its easier to hit and run then try and dodge others while tackling someone on the ground.

[sensei8]

I think that a Aikido practioner would say that their art is effective against multiple attackers as evident by observing an Aikido "master" in action. Having said that, I'm not an Aikido "master"/practitioner.

But I can see that Aikido has effective techniques with their multiple attacker scenarios. Moving this way and that way, causing attackers to run into themselves, twisting and tying attackers up amoungst themselves, and allowing the attackers to use their own energies against themselves.

Now, I've only one question to KF members on this subject...

How many multiple attackers are we referring to?

In Shindokan we have many effective techniques against 2-5 attackers and in reality the odds of successfully defending against multiple attackers greatly goes down as we go from 2 attackers to 3-5 attackers, but, anything more than that...like a crowd...I'M GOING TO Rrrrruuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnn faster that the Flash.

Capt. Kirk of Star Trek can say that he doesn't believe in the no win scenario, but, I believe in the no win scenario because there's a time when one must recognize one's way over their head and flee for safety sake. If one can't run for whatever reason....well...do your best!

Still, I think Aikido has some very effective techniques against multiple attackers, BUT, getting knocked down to the ground is another thing against multiple attackers. If one gets knocked down, one better get up fast or be very skilled on the ground or be prepared for a bad day.

>What about the multiple attackers RUSHING to attack at the same time?

>What about the multiple attackers RUSHING to attack at the same time and the attackers have WEAPONS?

Sometimes empty hand effectiveness against mutiple attackers become ineffective based on different parameters. Train in every possible scenario against multiple attackers daily.

Failure to imagine! That's what will defeat the unprepared.

[JusticeZero]

Multiple attackers requires you to not tie yourself up with any single attacker. A throwing art should still work.

[Throwdown0850]

Multiple attackers requires you to not tie yourself up with any single attacker. A throwing art should still work.

I agree, Aikido, Judo, some others like that seem like they would do okay against a couple of attackers.

[MMA_Jim]

Ask yourself the same question about standup styles of fighting...

This is a dead horse that is beaten too many times "BJJ cant work against multiple opponents"

BJJ never claimed that it could. The irony is that all these traditional styles that claimed they could proved unable to defeat a single opponent when paired up in the first UFC. If you cant even defeat one, dont speak to me about any theories on defeating many.

So in short, grab a knife or get a gun

[Jay]

Ask yourself the same question about standup styles of fighting...

This is a dead horse that is beaten too many times "BJJ cant work against multiple opponents"

BJJ never claimed that it could. The irony is that all these traditional styles that claimed they could proved unable to defeat a single opponent when paired up in the first UFC. If you cant even defeat one, dont speak to me about any theories on defeating many.

So in short, grab a knife or get a gun

With any art you are essentially at a disadvantage when against multiple people. I also don't think a particular 'art' claimed anything, the fighters did. There are good and bad practitioners in all arts.

Also people may disagree with me but most street fights don't last 3 rounds of 5 mins.

In the street a fight is generally over within a few shots, or it should be your tools are unlimited. The UFC is a good measure of skill but practically it is still limited. Some of the best weapons are not available. Fighting for your life is very different to organized competition.

[JusticeZero]

Skill in a specific competitive venue will not always be an accurate measure of effectiveness. The attackers I train to fight are of substantially inferior skill, but who are cheating mightily and vigorously to give them the edges they feel they need to grant them an easy win. They have friends, weapons, they don't tell anyone when or where the fight will be.

I'm training to cheat too; I train to have much higher levels of skill that cannot be removed or left behind. I'm training to see dangerous places and situations and avoid them. I'm training to be able to stage responses to minimize my blame. A gun or knife fails all of those, badly.

You also train to cheat, by optimizing your response around a very specific scenario with limits and conditions peculiar to it. Most arts don't do that, and certainly not around the specific scenario you chose.

And then after all that, you still have people who train the traditional arts you sneer at who find some success in your venue; it's just that every time they do, the MMA world adopts the techniques they used and then conveniently forget the origin. Your art is very 'traditional' too, being made up of a medley of several TMA's - they have their own traditions and quirks and foibles that are just as mystifying to a space alien as any of the ones the other TMA's have.

[wildman1717]

Ask yourself the same question about standup styles of fighting...

This is a dead horse that is beaten too many times "BJJ cant work against multiple opponents"

BJJ never claimed that it could. The irony is that all these traditional styles that claimed they could proved unable to defeat a single opponent when paired up in the first UFC. If you cant even defeat one, dont speak to me about any theories on defeating many.

So in short, grab a knife or get a gun

With any art you are essentially at a disadvantage when against multiple people. I also don't think a particular 'art' claimed anything, the fighters did. There are good and bad practitioners in all arts.

Also people may disagree with me but most street fights don't last 3 rounds of 5 mins.

In the street a fight is generally over within a few shots, or it should be your tools are unlimited. The UFC is a good measure of skill but practically it is still limited. Some of the best weapons are not available. Fighting for your life is very different to organized competition.

That is so true.