Master Shintani videos

[krypto]

Shintani Wado kai Pinan Yondan:

Wado International Karate-do Federation (WIKF) Pinan Yondan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvri7fwB8CI&NR=1

Chitsu

After doing a little digging, I found this Pinan Yondan from Shintani Wado-kai and it looks more Wado-ish:

[Jeffrey]

Yes Krypto that is more like what we do. I'm not sure where the first one came from but it was way off.

[Chitsu]

TBH I didn't think that was any closer

Here's what stands out as obvious - to me anyway.

First technique in Mahanmi Nekoashi - In Wado ryu this is generally taught with little or no movement off the centre line, and again in the second movement the weight does not shift too much.

In the Shintani version posted there is a big "leap" at this stage.

Then we have the Chudan Barai / Kick combos followed by Empi (elbow).

In Wado ryu version - the hips do not turn into the direction of the technique (or as little as possible) - kick is a Yoko geri (side kick) albeit with foot in front kick position.

Shintani Wado-kai version shows a clear turn into the direction of the kick.

Blocks are Chudan where they should be Jodan and vv.

Punches are Jodan when they should be Chudan.

Also look at the Kakeuke (hook block) at the end.

Wado ryu version is Jodan/High Chudan - with an outward motion.

Shintani ones are Gedan?

I could go on, but you get my drift.

Key to Wado Kata is how it works your body - and why.

Chitsu

[krypto]

Here are some more Wadoryu pinans, not by Shintani Wado-kai but by JIKC:

These are quite different.

[Chitsu]

Also not Wado-ryu.

I suspect it is another offspring called "Heiwa-do".

Chitsu

[Jeffrey]

I fear that every one has their own views on Kata. Every school depending on lineage will do something a bit different. The only way to find out which one is right is to have trained with the founding members. Over time things are changed. Even the original Pinan’s created by Itosu and pasted on to Hironori Ohtsuka and few others have changed over time.

The question that should be asked are do these changes make them a less effective tool in training? Forms/kata should evolve taking into account physics and modern body mechanics which were not around at the time of creation. Itosu changed tode into what we know today. Is wrong for us to change it with so much more science in fighting arts? Tradition is a hard thing to let go of.

Personally I like tradition. It is a tribute to founding members.

[krypto]

Also not Wado-ryu.

I suspect it is another offspring called "Heiwa-do".

Chitsu

The funny thing is the students call it Wado but the founder calls it Heiwado.

[Chitsu]

I fear that every one has their own views on Kata. Every school depending on lineage will do something a bit different. The only way to find out which one is right is to have trained with the founding members. Over time things are changed. Even the original Pinan’s created by Itosu and pasted on to Hironori Ohtsuka and few others have changed over time.

The question that should be asked are do these changes make them a less effective tool in training? Forms/kata should evolve taking into account physics and modern body mechanics which were not around at the time of creation. Itosu changed tode into what we know today. Is wrong for us to change it with so much more science in fighting arts? Tradition is a hard thing to let go of.

Personally I like tradition. It is a tribute to founding members.

Hi Jeffrey,

It is my understanding that Ohtsuka developed the Kata of Wado over a considerable length of time. He lived to a ripe old age and trained up to his last days.

Over this time he continued to "refine" (for want of a better word) his Wado. This is evident when you compare the kata of some of his early students like Suzuki, to those who trained with him later on in life like Takagi. Subtle differences can be seen - but once again the "principes" remain constant.

Bear in mind also, that Ohtsuka was a highly proficient and well educated martial artist long before he learnt the karate Kata of Funakoshi, Motobu and Mabuni. As a result of this expertise, he was able to develop a very unique and functional series of kata – with a specific modus operandi.

And its these principles that are at the heart of Wado – if you change it you are no longer doing wado.

What I see in the Katas presented so far, is just a sequence of moves that look a bit like Pinan katas, but just because they look like them doesn't mean they work like them.

Here is a clip of Katsumi Hakoishi Sensei (one of Ohtsuka Sensei senior students and technical director/advisor to JKF Wado-kai) performing Pinan Yondan:

And here he is again with pinan Sandan:

You can clearly see the difference.

Chitsu

[Chitsu]

Krypto,

Do you train in Wado?

If so is it withnthe Shintani group.

Chitsu

[krypto]

Krypto,

Do you train in Wado?

If so is it withnthe Shintani group.

Chitsu

Yes and yes.