Master Shintani videos

[krypto]

Here's a video of a demo by Master Shintani and a video of just a discussion:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=6333604557&ref=mf

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Steve Willow

[Chitsu]

Hello,

As far as understand it, Mr. Shintani's Wadokai is a kinda "fringe" group that is not recognised by any of the main international Wado bodies (JKF Wado-kai, WIKF and Wado Ryu Renmei).

Their Katas are markedly different from any of the aforementioned groups and suggested by most to be in direct conflict with many of the fundamental Wado principles.

That said, the late Mr Shintani may well have been an excellent karate-ka (as well as his students), but it doesn't look like any kind of wado that I have seen.

Chitsu

[Jeffrey]

Hello all,

I’m a Wado Kai Student Yon Kyu (4th Kyu) having just got that green belt 1 month ago.

I find that both are very much the same with the emphasis on taisabaki. The kata’s almost mirror each other. In Wado Kai there is a difference in Pinan Shodan and Nidan. It seems these are reversed. In Wado Kai you learn Nidan from Wado Ryu first which is Shodan in Wado Kai. I’m not an expert but I used the video from the Wado Ryu kata’s to help practice as they are the same. But I could be wrong being a newbie.

Jeffrey

[Chitsu]

Hello all,

I’m a Wado Kai Student Yon Kyu (4th Kyu) having just got that green belt 1 month ago.

I find that both are very much the same with the emphasis on taisabaki. The kata’s almost mirror each other. In Wado Kai there is a difference in Pinan Shodan and Nidan. It seems these are reversed. In Wado Kai you learn Nidan from Wado Ryu first which is Shodan in Wado Kai. I’m not an expert but I used the video from the Wado Ryu kata’s to help practice as they are the same. But I could be wrong being a newbie.

Jeffrey

Hello,

In my experience, although slight differences can be found from instructor to instructor (and group to group), generally speaking, the Kata done in the three International Wado groups are very similar (to each other) - and certainly have fundamental Wado principles in common.

When I see Shintani Wado-kai versions, they do not appear to share these principles - often they contradict them!

Granted the embussen maybe similar, buts that's where it stops.

A bit of info for you:

Taisabiki - is not unique to Wado . How it is utilsed is, but not Taisabaki per-se – most styles have taisabaki.

The name of Pinan Nidan and Pinan Shodan kata were switched by Funakoshi (Shotokan) when he re-named them Heian’s

Chitsu

[Jeffrey]

Thanks for the info Chitsu. I'll have to take a closer look. Being a little new to the Karate practice I find everyday I learn something new.

[Chitsu]

Hi Jeffrey,

btw as a 4th kyu, I wouldn't say you were a newbie to this, so would be surprised you can't see the difference.

Shintani Wado kai Pinan Yondan:

Wado International Karate-do Federation (WIKF) Pinan Yondan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvri7fwB8CI&NR=1

Have a look and see what you think.

Chitsu

[Jeffrey]

You’re right, after watching the Yondan links I can see the differences very clear. In the Sandan and Yondan kata it was clear but Shodan and Nidan took a bit of time to see the differences. I just began learning Yondan last night at practice so when I got home I watched the videos a few times. This gave way to a late night “thanks ”. I also took the time to research the Wado groups. I will take a bit of time tonight to do a little research on the Wado principles.

So I have to ask…. is one better than the other? I know that is most often the hardest question to answer as everyone has their own thoughts as what is better but you seem pretty opened minded to these things.

I still consider myself new to Karate after 1 year. I advanced quickly through the first 3 ranks because I had 5 years in a Kempo/Kung Fu 15 years ago. Most of the blocks, punches etc. remained the same at the lower ranks. My body remembered (not the mind) these and it allowed me to advance a little more quickly. It became more of a terminology learning than anything. Learning the new Kata came quickly with a bit of practice leaving only the different muscle groups used in Martial Arts to rebuild. Pain was my friend for a while.

[Jeffrey]

Hello,

As far as understand it, Mr. Shintani's Wadokai is a kinda "fringe" group that is not recognised by any of the main international Wado bodies (JKF Wado-kai, WIKF and Wado Ryu Renmei).

Their Katas are markedly different from any of the aforementioned groups and suggested by most to be in direct conflict with many of the fundamental Wado principles.

That said, the late Mr Shintani may well have been an excellent karate-ka (as well as his students), but it doesn't look like any kind of wado that I have seen.

Chitsu

Hello Chitsu,

I found this and thought it would qualify your thoughts about Shintani being a fringe group. I found this in one of the student club manuals.

“ In Canada, the official sanctioning body for karate is the National Karate Association, founded in 1964 by Masime Tsuruoka. The NKA has provincial affiliates in many Canadian Provinces, including Alberta and Ontario. Sensei Shintani knew Sensei Tsuruoka, and spoke favourably of him, but the Shintani Wado Kai Karate Federation remains separate from the NKA to this day,

and is not affiliated with any major national or international sanctioning bodies. In Alberta, only the Zen Kuren Wado Kai Karate organization is a member of Karate Alberta, and by extension, the NKA. It is affiliated with the JKF - Wado Kai organization in Japan. A Canadian affiliate to WIKF also exists, is headquartered in BC, and is a member of Karate BC and the NKA.”

That being said it does appear that the Shintani Wado Kai karate Federation is one of the largest organization practicing Wado Kai karate in Canada. There are over 100 clubs, 900+ students in Alberta, and roughly 2400 students nation-wide.

[Chitsu]

Hi Jeffrey,

Yes, I was aware that Mr Shintani's group is not recognised by this governing body. As well as this, the JKF Wado-kai (the largest Wado-ryu group in the world (with over 800,000 members)) has a disclaimer at the foot of their website stating that Mr Shintani’s "Wadokai" group is nothing to do with them.

But, governing bodies are just that, and are not necessarily standards bearers for quality.

You asked earlier what I thought was best: -

I think that's an impossible question to answer. How do you define best anyway - largest group with most number of students? Most competition wins? Who knows?

A different question is perhaps which is more "authentic" (ie closer to the Wado that Ohtsuka developed)? And even that is subjective - but it’s probably more visible/apparent - if that makes sense.

Chitsu

[Jeffrey]

Good Points. There is a Wado Ryu Club I will check out in Sept. when they take new students. It's on different nights so it will not conflict.

I also believe what you take from something is what makes it good. There is a best for everyone.

The Shintani clubs are really big here in Alberta so it seems larger than looking at it globally. Most small towns have one.

You did put me the path to reading more on Karate and I thank you for that.