"Body Assist" against the knife

[joesteph]

There are many videos that instruct how to defend against a knife thrust, but this is the first one I've seen that addresses the question, "What happens if the attacker simply pulls his hand back?"

The video by Moni Aizik (Krav Maga) is at:

http://blackbeltmag.com/moni-aizik-commando-krav-maga-wiz-weapon-disarm/videos/215

Do you think he makes a valid claim?

[Kuma]

I think it's a bit too "fine motor skill" necessary. Though I like some of what Moni Aizik does, that to me seems more like something for a demo than a real situation.

I much prefer this method by Kelly McCann/Jim Grover. It's simple, effective, and doesn't require tons of training to be effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUcQMCLHGc

[joesteph]

I think it's a bit too "fine motor skill" necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUcQMCLHGc

Thanks, Kuma. It's interesting that Jim Grover refers to it as a "disarm"; it neutralizes and allows infighting techniques.

[Kuma]

I especially like him as you can see how his techniques and approaches are constantly evolving. He stays on top of things and is constantly pressure testing and trying out new ideas. He also has experience with knife fighting as well (Escrima) which I think is important because I've seen a lot of knife disarm techniques where you could tell the individual teaching didn't really know how to use one in the first place.

[Fearun9033]

Thank you for posting these videos! They're really great. I'm doing Shotokan and I know it's not the greatest karate in terms of real self-defense of close-quarter combat, but this gives me an idea how to deal.

I think both videos complement each other well as one is a stab and the other is more of a slash.

My sensei always told me that when confronted with someone holding a knife (assuming you are not within immediate strike distance) is to use leg techniques. He taught me to use a side snap kick on the wrist to remove the knife or at least create an opening, a side thrust kick with same leg and quickly come down with a roundhouse kick with the other leg.

What do you guys think? It seems to work well in a low-stress dojo environment but the legs do have huge arteries and veins and if you don't disarm and he scrapes one, you're basically done.

[joesteph]

My sensei always told me that when confronted with someone holding a knife (assuming you are not within immediate strike distance) is to use leg techniques.

The second video, with the link posted by Kuma, has within it a kick to the lower shin that's emphasized as not being a rake/scrape, but a true kick, with your body dropping to add power to its impact. It looks fairly close, and if I had to use it, not being proficient in knife defense, I'd take the time it's supposed to give me to back away rapidly until I'm gone, distance as my friend.

I wonder if it's equally or more effective against the knee? In JKD, the kick to the knee that I practiced was a side kick that drove down at an angle against the top of the knee, the idea being downward impact as greater damage impact.

[Kuma]

He calls it the "low destructive kick" which is executed the same way in a side kick fashion, very identical to kansetsu geri. Many of his techniques have a basis in karate:

Axe hand = shuto uchi uchi

Hammerfist = tettsui oroshi uchi

Face Mash = shotei oroshi uchi

Chin Jab = shotei jodan uchi

Angle Kick = gedan mawashi geri

Etc.

[Parsonator73]

I haven't been studying karate for very long, but both of the techniques in the videos differ from what I have learned for knife defenses. The defense I have a learned against a thrusting knife attack like in the first video starts with a twist to escape the thrust and then a then a downward strike and an upward strike simultaneously to the wrist of the attacker to either make him/her drop the knife or at least create pain in the wrist. It is followed by a backfist type strike to the face and then a side kick to the throat. I find it very effective and not all that difficult to perform.

As for a slashing attack with a knife, we learn to take 45 degree angles to escape the slash. At the correct moment, you step into the attacker and block the arm and strike to the groin at the same time. Then you wrap the attacker's arm and neck, pull him/her into your body and turn to face the opposite direction to throw them. Maintaining the arm wrap, you strike to the throat/collarbone twice, and then explode upward, snapping the arm, and come down with a final strike to the throat/collarbone. This one is a little more complicated, but practice makes perfect.

I think I would prefer either of these to the two in the videos, but every situation is different and each person has their preference.

[algernon]

My sensei . . . taught me to use a side snap kick on the wrist to remove the knife . . .

Hands are much faster than feet. The only time that I would ever try to kick a knife out of a hand is when the arm is already immobilized, and the kick is intended to damage the hand, rather than cause a release. I've had this tried on me, and it's surprisingly easy to keep a grip on the knife. I was also holding my hand still to allow the kick to find its target; kicking a knife out of a moving hand is much more a matter of luck than speed or strategy. I once visited a potential school, and in my first lesson the instructor suggested an inside crescent kick as a knife disarm. That was my only lesson at that school.

[Fearun9033]

Hands are much faster than feet. The only time that I would ever try to kick a knife out of a hand is when the arm is already immobilized, and the kick is intended to damage the hand, rather than cause a release. I've had this tried on me, and it's surprisingly easy to keep a grip on the knife. I was also holding my hand still to allow the kick to find its target; kicking a knife out of a moving hand is much more a matter of luck than speed or strategy. I once visited a potential school, and in my first lesson the instructor suggested an inside crescent kick as a knife disarm. That was my only lesson at that school.

Thank you for your insight! Now that you have told me this, it does make extra sense. I do feel that I can be faster with my hands and be more precise.

My question is, suppose I am out of range of my hands, but within range for kicking. Suppose running away is also not an option, should I still attempt to keep distance and throw kicks and GO IN and attempt to disarm?

Edited February 8, 2010 by Fearun9033