Jiu-Jitsu versus Judo

[MMA_Jim]

You did, by bringing up the conditions which Gracie jujutsu was designed for- which was predominantly Brazilian vale tudo fights and submission grappling matches from the mid-1920s onward, not 'street fights' per se.

A fine distinction, but an existant one.

Oh no, I never mentioned vale tudo- Again, Gracie jiu jitsu was created specifically for street fighting. The duels happened on their own as people began setting them up themselves to determine who was the better fighter. You fail to understand that the Gracies would regularly go out and get involved in street fights where there were no rules and no referees. They would do things like fight alledged drug dealers and lower life people who would try to pollute their neighborhoods. Some of the time they had to run away to get more reinforcements because they were severely outnumbered.

Its a little ironic, but this is exactly what happened with japanese ju jitsu prior to the innovation of Judo-- ju jitsu fighters used to regularly "duel" as you put it, in the street. Against another fighter where someone was trying to prove their fighting prowess- yes they were duels, sometimes organized, sometimes not so much, but these people got their reputations through the numerous street fights and altercations they were in. Seriously, it doesnt matter how you do it, but if you were able to seriously beat up a known fighter (say you jumped and trashed a Gracie) you'd be the hot item around the street. You could have used a tire iron, baseball bat, or whathave you it doesnt matter- you beat them up. You'd have a reputation over night. Such things havent happened, and its not because people were unwilling to try such things...

Thats what these duels really are and started out being- a showdown between the two baddest dudes around (i.e. they're the baddest dudes because they win all the streetfights). People want to see whos better so they arrange a fight between the two, so you get a duel- doesnt mean the two involved havent been around the block awhile- you know? Sometimes people were just confronted and beat up. No discussion of rules, refs, or anything else. Just plain and simple- "I heard you're talking some smack!" and wham-beat upside the head, taken down and choked out. If thats not a street fight than what is?

[jsteczko]

You are arguing which martial art is better but the biggest asset everyone has is his own mind. If you are very skilled martial artist but you cannot push yourself to victory you may not succeed. You must believe in yourself. On the other hand you cannot be too optimistic because then you may not respect your opponent and be beaten up.

Sometimes you can meet people who have strong minds. You can just see it on the way they move, speak etc. Very much depends on the mindset.

Discussions about which martial art is better will never end.

[MMA_Jim]

You are arguing which martial art is better but the biggest asset everyone has is his own mind. If you are very skilled martial artist but you cannot push yourself to victory you may not succeed. You must believe in yourself. On the other hand you cannot be too optimistic because then you may not respect your opponent and be beaten up.

Well, yeah.

Using ones mind and keeping it open is one the best things one can do. But, your mind, no matter how powerfull, will not compensate for your lack of skill and technique if you have a completely faulty understanding for what it is you're trying to accomplish.

In other words, no matter how much you may want to beat someone else, your mind will not empower you if you lack the proper instruction.

Discussions about which martial art is better will never end.

Arguments for the advancement of creationism will never end either, that doesnt mean that theres any merit whatsoever in the idea.

[JiuJitsuNation]

My suggestion is find a BJJ school with a strong top game.

[grav3h3art]

what if a white belt beats a black belt in Ne-waza??? does that mean that the white belt that has no/little "formal" training on the ground game better than a black belt that has tons of experience on that aspect?

I mean its not the rank you have but the fighter himself that makes the difference. This applies to all martial arts and self defense.

Many times people go more on rank and experience but sometimes talent and perseverance makes people win bouts that nobody thought possible for that person.

[JiuJitsuNation]

I have trained with a few Olympic Judoka and their coaches. Very unnerving their grip game is. For every three times I would get thrown I'd thrown them once. Which for me was a confidence builder for competition. And yes other than that I have ever only seen one other school that offered high level Judo. As far as small circle and let me add Niseido as these I have first hand experience with. They don't fair very well on the feet or ground with judo or bjj. I have a Nisiedo representative near me and my blue belts take them down, control, sweep and tap them effortlessly. There is no comparison.

We do have to remember that when there is an exception it is usually someone claiming to be more than they are. Which is stupid because it generally makes you a target in the school you have just entered.

[bushido_man96]

No, not rank so much, as skill, that makes the difference. Usually, the two have a direct corelation, but not always. And desire and perserverance are not always enough to pull someone through. Skill and preparation are just as important.

[kozushi]

I do both.

Judo is about throwing and then taking a strong starting position on the ground.

BJJ (even though it starts from the feet) is more about starting from that strong starting position you got to in judo, and then progressing it through to a submission lock of some kind, or at least progressing through various pointable positions to collect points.

Lots of BJJ guys also do lots of judo. Lots of judo guys do BJJ (VERY obvious at international competitions when you watch how the Brazilian team fights!) This is supposed to be very common in Brazil, the heartland of BJJ.

As for which is "better???" Better at what?

The judo olympian can probably throw your elite BJJ athlete on his back (unless he is ALSO a judo olympian, which is more common than you'd expect!) and pin him there. It would be highly unlikely for the judo olympian to go from there (the pin) to a submission on the elite BJJ player though, and if he tries, he might get reversed and lose.

Of course, the BJJ player could just sit down and dare the judoka to pounce on him, at which point he can try to pull guard and work for sweeps and submissions. But the judoka could just say "get up and come to me." That would be a funny scenario!

So I don't know about which is "better." For continous ground fighting progression, of course BJJ. For getting from standing to a strong position on the ground, judo hands down.

For street fighting, I'd think judo would be better, because you aren't going to be "progressing" on the ground in a street fight. You're probably just going to want to slam the guy down and then pull back and glare at him and see what he does. You don't want him pulling a knife out of his pocket while you are working some kind of submission!

You can also make a citizen's arrest with a judo pin. A submission attempt, particularly a choke, can be considered attempted murder. Let's not forget the law in all this too!

[JiuJitsuNation]

You did, by bringing up the conditions which Gracie jujutsu was designed for- which was predominantly Brazilian vale tudo fights and submission grappling matches from the mid-1920s onward, not 'street fights' per se.

A fine distinction, but an existant one.

Have you seen old video of bjj guys street fighting? Biting ears off and things like that. Yes they held many challenges for publicity but don't confuse that with their goals and purpose.

[bushido_man96]

So I don't know about which is "better." For continous ground fighting progression, of course BJJ. For getting from standing to a strong position on the ground, judo hands down.

Great points here. Each has their strong suit.

For street fighting, I'd think judo would be better, because you aren't going to be "progressing" on the ground in a street fight. You're probably just going to want to slam the guy down and then pull back and glare at him and see what he does. You don't want him pulling a knife out of his pocket while you are working some kind of submission!

You can also make a citizen's arrest with a judo pin. A submission attempt, particularly a choke, can be considered attempted murder. Let's not forget the law in all this too!

I think this can vary. I would be remiss to say that progression skills in BJJ would not be as useful on the street. No one really wants to go to the ground in the street, but just because you don't want it to happen, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. So, which of the two is better is going to depend on the set of circumstances each is faced with at the time.