Using the Title "master"

[masterphoenix]

My instructor, who was from Korea and continued to earn rank through Korea until he could go no higher, still uses and very much believes in this title. But his English is still choppy and I'm not certain he understands the term fully in English, nor the history of it in the United States - it's never stood for anything good in the history of this country's peoples. It means to control, dominate, enslave or equally as unhelpful "to perfect." The term was problematic for this country and it's status and rank hungry but work fearing population from the get go. I respect my instructor by submitting, and allowing him and his students to call me this, as I expect my students to follow my traditions. He allows me the freedom to do as I please in my school regarding titles and rank. I've grown fond of hearing him call me "Master" because of our relationship, and the respect he intends when he uses it.

With all due respect I don't think the term "master", as in blackbelt master, means that that person is in control or is dominating with the master-slave relationship. Its a homonym so often the two meanings get confused but I think in this case we're more along the lines of master craftsman or master tradesman. As in you have a high proficiency in your craft and are very knowledgeable about it. Same idea as master's degrees, its not that you are controlling or dominating anyone but that you have knowledge above and beyond what its normal in a particular field. If we use this English meaning of master, I have no problem using it for someone I consider to be an expert in a style.

Yes, you have a good point... I shouldn't have said it never stood for anything good. My point was that the history of the term in this country has a huge negative shadow over it due to slavery. Even in a racial sense it could make some people extremely uncomfortable, and I would not blame them. I didn't make my point clear, but it was that the term is troubled from the start due to historical connotations. I'm not suggesting that no one can use the title. Obviously, my instructor does and I do call him "Master." It's simply something I don't prefer or find helpful. I've found that it tends to make Americans arrogant a great deal of the time.

Thanks for the insight.

[Lupin1]

With all due respect I don't think the term "master", as in blackbelt master, means that that person is in control or is dominating with the master-slave relationship. Its a homonym so often the two meanings get confused but I think in this case we're more along the lines of master craftsman or master tradesman. As in you have a high proficiency in your craft and are very knowledgeable about it. Same idea as master's degrees, its not that you are controlling or dominating anyone but that you have knowledge above and beyond what its normal in a particular field. If we use this English meaning of master, I have no problem using it for someone I consider to be an expert in a style.

Exactly. To give some perspective, when an education student is student teaching, the teacher he or she is paired with is called their master teacher. Of course, you don't call them "master" but it shows that the use is very common in the English language. I think where it gets lost in the translation isn't in using it to describe someone-- that's very common (master craftsman, master teacher, master chef, etc). I think where we get weirded out in English is in actually calling someone "Master". I don't know if it has to do with the heavy influence of Christianity ("Call no man Master") or the fact that we usually see someone who's actually called master as part of a master/slave relationship, or maybe we see it as an antiquicated term (it used be a substitute for "mister" for boys/young men in pre-civil war era-- like "young Master James" and was seen as belittling if you called a man that [like you were calling him a boy]). There are a lot of reasons why English speakers don't necessarily like the term.

Although we don't use it at my school (like I said earlier, my instructor is against applying the term to anyone living), I personally think it's cool. Makes me feel like a Jedi padawan.

[IcemanSK]

I read and write Korean, and while I can't say that I've seen any connotation of "Father" in the term Sa Bom or Sa Bom Nim, maybe that's a cultural thing for whatever area he is from like our words have slightly different meanings between various regions sometimes. What I have seen is that Sa Bom seems to be a term for a legitimate teacher, and has no connotations of Master whatsoever. Kwan Jang Nim, which refers to a higher ranked teacher or a president of schools/associations is the typical somewhat equivalent term for senior instructor, and I've never seen it used by a Korean with less than 6th dan, but maybe it is.

I like your instructor's ideas. Yes, in English, I don't care for the Master term. Americans seem to want status and rank as quickly as they can get it, even if they have to buy it in order to be "respected." What they've failed to realize is that this isn't respect, its a superficial adoration or submission from people who either don't know enough to make discernments or whose standards are poor themselves.

My instructor, who was from Korea and continued to earn rank through Korea until he could go no higher, still uses and very much believes in this title. But his English is still choppy and I'm not certain he understands the term fully in English, nor the history of it in the United States - it's never stood for anything good in the history of this country's peoples. It means to control, dominate, enslave or equally as unhelpful "to perfect." The term was problematic for this country and it's status and rank hungry but work fearing population from the get go. I respect my instructor by submitting, and allowing him and his students to call me this, as I expect my students to follow my traditions. He allows me the freedom to do as I please in my school regarding titles and rank. I've grown fond of hearing him call me "Master" because of our relationship, and the respect he intends when he uses it.

As I told my higher ranks, if you do everything you are capable of doing, and if your life reflects that martial art is not just a sport, but a Way, and if you've managed to find hope in the darkest of the world's realities, and if you've offered that hope to others, maybe during your lifetime, but more likely when you are gone, the people will lift up your name and proclaim you a Master, based on what you have done, as they have done with all historical teachers who have touched lives.

Thank you for this clarification. I did not remember correctly. This has been such a confusing detail of Korean/English translation for me.

In my TKD organization, "master" is a title one is eligible for at 4th Dan. Despite my 28 years of training, I'm not there yet. (Long story). In my org., we wear a braided stripe on our left sleeve for every 4 years of training. I have more braids on my left sleeve than some 4th Dans have years on the planet. They show my deference & call me "sir." I do not ask them to do so. They have learned that, in Korea, the length of time one has trained is more esteemed than rank achieved.

My KJN ALWAYS refers to me as "Mr." in every discussion, email or correspondence. He does this out of respect. His custom is to refer to his students by the titles they have earned under him. Regardless of what title I'm given, "Mr." will be what my students call me. I know many masters for whom the title fits. I also know many for whom it does not.

It's sad that the Korean terms didn't get translated into English well back in the day. We would have less of these issues.

[masterphoenix]

I read and write Korean, and while I can't say that I've seen any connotation of "Father" in the term Sa Bom or Sa Bom Nim, maybe that's a cultural thing for whatever area he is from like our words have slightly different meanings between various regions sometimes. What I have seen is that Sa Bom seems to be a term for a legitimate teacher, and has no connotations of Master whatsoever. Kwan Jang Nim, which refers to a higher ranked teacher or a president of schools/associations is the typical somewhat equivalent term for senior instructor, and I've never seen it used by a Korean with less than 6th dan, but maybe it is.

I like your instructor's ideas. Yes, in English, I don't care for the Master term. Americans seem to want status and rank as quickly as they can get it, even if they have to buy it in order to be "respected." What they've failed to realize is that this isn't respect, its a superficial adoration or submission from people who either don't know enough to make discernments or whose standards are poor themselves.

My instructor, who was from Korea and continued to earn rank through Korea until he could go no higher, still uses and very much believes in this title. But his English is still choppy and I'm not certain he understands the term fully in English, nor the history of it in the United States - it's never stood for anything good in the history of this country's peoples. It means to control, dominate, enslave or equally as unhelpful "to perfect." The term was problematic for this country and it's status and rank hungry but work fearing population from the get go. I respect my instructor by submitting, and allowing him and his students to call me this, as I expect my students to follow my traditions. He allows me the freedom to do as I please in my school regarding titles and rank. I've grown fond of hearing him call me "Master" because of our relationship, and the respect he intends when he uses it.

As I told my higher ranks, if you do everything you are capable of doing, and if your life reflects that martial art is not just a sport, but a Way, and if you've managed to find hope in the darkest of the world's realities, and if you've offered that hope to others, maybe during your lifetime, but more likely when you are gone, the people will lift up your name and proclaim you a Master, based on what you have done, as they have done with all historical teachers who have touched lives.

Thank you for this clarification. I did not remember correctly. This has been such a confusing detail of Korean/English translation for me.

In my TKD organization, "master" is a title one is eligible for at 4th Dan. Despite my 28 years of training, I'm not there yet. (Long story). In my org., we wear a braided stripe on our left sleeve for every 4 years of training. I have more braids on my left sleeve than some 4th Dans have years on the planet. They show my deference & call me "sir." I do not ask them to do so. They have learned that, in Korea, the length of time one has trained is more esteemed than rank achieved.

My KJN ALWAYS refers to me as "Mr." in every discussion, email or correspondence. He does this out of respect. His custom is to refer to his students by the titles they have earned under him. Regardless of what title I'm given, "Mr." will be what my students call me. I know many masters for whom the title fits. I also know many for whom it does not.

It's sad that the Korean terms didn't get translated into English well back in the day. We would have less of these issues.

Chung Do Kwan? Did I read that right? Are you by any chance with the Edward B. Sell group?

[IcemanSK]

Chung Do Kwan? Did I read that right? Are you by any chance with the Edward B. Sell group?

I am indeed a student of GM Sell.