Using the Title "master"

[mudansha]

At what dan level do you think it is appropriate to call a teacher a master?...I know many schools including Kajukenpo, Oh Do Kwan, Song Ahm, and Tang Soo do, allow their fourth degrees to be called master. I dont believe that a fourth degree has enough experience to be called master.

What are your opinions kind people?

You are forcing your understanding and ranking on other styles. Some styles give a shodan after 1.5-2 years. In my school it takes 6-7 years. My sensei has been a black belt for 40 years and is only 4th dan. My sensei has been practicing karate for close to 50 years, he has a black belt in Goju and shotokan given to him by karate masters over 30 years ago. He can be called a master, yet he refuses to take the name. Humility is a part of the art; when one takes the name of "master" he better be able to prove it. Being darned good, is not a master. A master knows every aspect of every kata, including breathing, bunkai, every block and kick, and he has done it so many times, he can do it in his sleep without hesitation or reservation.

I know people who call themselves "4th dan" after 10 years. My instructor has been at 4th dan for twice that long, and is not yet a 5th dan. This is because of the assosiation. SKI very rarely gives out anything over a 5th dan.

[Lupin1]

Haha-- I just found this on my sensei's old website and I thought it was funny.

He says in order to qualify as master, first you have to die and then wait 25 years. If 25 years later people still remember your name in connection with your art, you're a master. After 50 years if they still remember you, you're a grand master.

[Dr. Frank]

As always, standards and customs will vary from style to style and school to school. It was explained to me that at Godan one is expected to know all of the techniques and kata within the style so technically at that rank one has "mastered" the style.

But personally I find the term master a bit pretentious and greatly overused. I tend to smirk at anyone who actually calls himself master.

[doug_kissaki]

I have trained for the last 10 years under an 8th dan. He doesn't particularly care for titles. He travels around the world teaching seminars and says he can always tell the one in the room with the "master" title... it's the one who isn't training.

[masterphoenix]

At what dan level do you think it is appropriate to call a teacher a master?...I know many schools including Kajukenpo, Oh Do Kwan, Song Ahm, and Tang Soo do, allow their fourth degrees to be called master. I dont believe that a fourth degree has enough experience to be called master.

What are your opinions kind people?

My instructor (9th dan) uses these titles in his school (which my nickname reflects), but I don't. It's my opinion that calling someone "Master" in English carries a lot of unhelpful connotations and creates a lot of arrogance among some people (not all, of course.)

I was talking with Keith Yates a few years ago (author of Complete Book of Tae Kwon Do Forms and other books. You can find him on amazon.com) and he told me that Master is a certification, and in his opinion, should not be used verbally to a person. He used the analogy of the "Master Electrician" or "Master Mechanic" which are levels of certification used to denote expertise, but which we would find awkward verbalizing toward a person. He agreed that in this country, in the English language, this title creates as many unhelpful perceptions as helpful ones, and at 10th dan, no one in his schools uses this title.

In my schools, we prefer to use titles which indicate senior instructors, or simply call Masters the same thing we call black belts "Mr." or "Ms." Chuck Norris doesn't even allow his students to call him "Master."

When the time comes that my instructor retires from teaching, I will not use this title any longer. I quit using it with my students long ago. Of course, you should always do what feels right for you. There isn't just one way of doing things.

As for the technical end of the question, it is difficult for me to view being called "Master" at anything less than 5th as being legitimate. 5th seems to be the most common standard in my experience, although some use 4th and 6th also.

[masterphoenix]

Haha-- I just found this on my sensei's old website and I thought it was funny.

He says in order to qualify as master, first you have to die and then wait 25 years. If 25 years later people still remember your name in connection with your art, you're a master. After 50 years if they still remember you, you're a grand master.

LOL.. perfect!!! I love this!!!!

[IcemanSK]

My first instructor (a Korean gentleman) was a 5th Dan and told us to call him "Mr." His business card read "Mr. _______ Master Instructor." In Korean, Sa Bom is translated "Teaching Father" rather than master. As others have said, master connotes things in English that Korean doesn't not intend.

Just call me Mr. It's easier.

[masterphoenix]

My first instructor (a Korean gentleman) was a 5th Dan and told us to call him "Mr." His business card read "Mr. _______ Master Instructor." In Korean, Sa Bom is translated "Teaching Father" rather than master. As others have said, master connotes things in English that Korean doesn't not intend.

Just call me Mr. It's easier.

I read and write Korean, and while I can't say that I've seen any connotation of "Father" in the term Sa Bom or Sa Bom Nim, maybe that's a cultural thing for whatever area he is from like our words have slightly different meanings between various regions sometimes. What I have seen is that Sa Bom seems to be a term for a legitimate teacher, and has no connotations of Master whatsoever. Kwan Jang Nim, which refers to a higher ranked teacher or a president of schools/associations is the typical somewhat equivalent term for senior instructor, and I've never seen it used by a Korean with less than 6th dan, but maybe it is.

I like your instructor's ideas. Yes, in English, I don't care for the Master term. Americans seem to want status and rank as quickly as they can get it, even if they have to buy it in order to be "respected." What they've failed to realize is that this isn't respect, its a superficial adoration or submission from people who either don't know enough to make discernments or whose standards are poor themselves.

My instructor, who was from Korea and continued to earn rank through Korea until he could go no higher, still uses and very much believes in this title. But his English is still choppy and I'm not certain he understands the term fully in English, nor the history of it in the United States - it's never stood for anything good in the history of this country's peoples. It means to control, dominate, enslave or equally as unhelpful "to perfect." The term was problematic for this country and it's status and rank hungry but work fearing population from the get go. I respect my instructor by submitting, and allowing him and his students to call me this, as I expect my students to follow my traditions. He allows me the freedom to do as I please in my school regarding titles and rank. I've grown fond of hearing him call me "Master" because of our relationship, and the respect he intends when he uses it.

As I told my higher ranks, if you do everything you are capable of doing, and if your life reflects that martial art is not just a sport, but a Way, and if you've managed to find hope in the darkest of the world's realities, and if you've offered that hope to others, maybe during your lifetime, but more likely when you are gone, the people will lift up your name and proclaim you a Master, based on what you have done, as they have done with all historical teachers who have touched lives.

[DWx]

My instructor, who was from Korea and continued to earn rank through Korea until he could go no higher, still uses and very much believes in this title. But his English is still choppy and I'm not certain he understands the term fully in English, nor the history of it in the United States - it's never stood for anything good in the history of this country's peoples. It means to control, dominate, enslave or equally as unhelpful "to perfect." The term was problematic for this country and it's status and rank hungry but work fearing population from the get go. I respect my instructor by submitting, and allowing him and his students to call me this, as I expect my students to follow my traditions. He allows me the freedom to do as I please in my school regarding titles and rank. I've grown fond of hearing him call me "Master" because of our relationship, and the respect he intends when he uses it.

With all due respect I don't think the term "master", as in blackbelt master, means that that person is in control or is dominating with the master-slave relationship. Its a homonym so often the two meanings get confused but I think in this case we're more along the lines of master craftsman or master tradesman. As in you have a high proficiency in your craft and are very knowledgeable about it. Same idea as master's degrees, its not that you are controlling or dominating anyone but that you have knowledge above and beyond what its normal in a particular field. If we use this English meaning of master, I have no problem using it for someone I consider to be an expert in a style.

[masterphoenix]

At what dan level do you think it is appropriate to call a teacher a master?...I know many schools including Kajukenpo, Oh Do Kwan, Song Ahm, and Tang Soo do, allow their fourth degrees to be called master. I dont believe that a fourth degree has enough experience to be called master.

What are your opinions kind people?

You are forcing your understanding and ranking on other styles. Some styles give a shodan after 1.5-2 years. In my school it takes 6-7 years. My sensei has been a black belt for 40 years and is only 4th dan. My sensei has been practicing karate for close to 50 years, he has a black belt in Goju and shotokan given to him by karate masters over 30 years ago. He can be called a master, yet he refuses to take the name. Humility is a part of the art; when one takes the name of "master" he better be able to prove it. Being darned good, is not a master. A master knows every aspect of every kata, including breathing, bunkai, every block and kick, and he has done it so many times, he can do it in his sleep without hesitation or reservation.

I know people who call themselves "4th dan" after 10 years. My instructor has been at 4th dan for twice that long, and is not yet a 5th dan. This is because of the assosiation. SKI very rarely gives out anything over a 5th dan.

Good points, but you accuse the poster of forcing his or her understanding, and then you appear to turn around and recite rather specific qualifications for what a Master must be, based on your own experience and style, which I can tell you is not applicable to all styles, based on what you've said. My experience of almost 30 years with approximately 3,000 students gives me a different perspective of Master and rank than you have, and that's fine. No one way has to be the only or the right way. We can only do what feels right to us, and teach our people the same.

Your points hold reasonably true, but what a Master is or isn't will continue to be defined by each school or association, and will only translate into its full meaning within that organization. From one organization and style to the next, rank can only be an approximate concept, and will never be fully agreeable across the board. I know many who would not agree with 40 years at 4th dan, either.

And if we suggest that someone else is forcing an understanding, we can hardly afford to force our own in such concrete terms, as if our understanding were a sweeping definition to which all styles must adhere.

Good post.