Using the Title "master"

[Chuck]

Unfortunately there is a very common misunderstanding in the west when it comes to rank and titles in traditional Okinawan Karate. This is the way I was taught and read in my research. Sensei is the highest and most honorable title that one can hold and is usually the head of the dojo. Shihan is a title used to refer to the head of an associtation or style. For example I call my instructor Sensei and I call his instructor Shihan because he is the head of our association. He would not consider it an insult if I called him Sensei. When it comes to the titles of Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi this are more of a teaching rank to separate the different master instructor levels. An equivalant would be Bachelor Degree, Master Degree or a Doctorate. These are ranks not titles. A person named Dave should not be called Renshi Dave, He should be called Sensei or Shihan depending on his position within an organization.

I do not mean to mean to offend anyone with this post, just trying to helo clarify proper use of rank and title as I understand it to be. I do not consider myself the foremost authority on the subject. I was recently promoted to Rokudan and given the rank of Renshi, however I feel that I am far from being a "master".

Osu Sensei J,

if I may ask, where do you teach and train?

[Wa-No-Michi]

I know one "Kancho Master" thats a nidan haha, he opened up his own school last year and runs a LARGE Mc Dojo...He awards shodan after one year...but he has the title of "judan" and is only 27 yrs old....

Always makes me giggle when I see the word Kancho.

A quick Google search will show you why, as it is the name given to a schoolyard prank played by Kids in Japan - similar to what we would call a "Wedgie" here in the UK.

Kancho is not one of the original Sho-go titles (as far as I am aware) - ie, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi.

As I understand it, it comes from the term Kanchou, which means "Director" as in company directory.

Its a position of office within an organisation, rather than a title of recognition.

So next time you here someone being referred to as Kancho - just think "Wedgie" and steer well clear of their karate club.

WNM

[Ichi_Geki]

I know one "Kancho Master" thats a nidan haha, he opened up his own school last year and runs a LARGE Mc Dojo...He awards shodan after one year...but he has the title of "judan" and is only 27 yrs old....

Always makes me giggle when I see the word Kancho.

A quick Google search will show you why, as it is the name given to a schoolyard prank played by Kids in Japan - similar to what we would call a "Wedgie" here in the UK.

Kancho is not one of the original Sho-go titles (as far as I am aware) - ie, Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi.

As I understand it, it comes from the term Kanchou, which means "Director" as in company directory.

Its a position of office within an organisation, rather than a title of recognition.

So next time you here someone being referred to as Kancho - just think "Wedgie" and steer well clear of their karate club.

WNM

I believe Kyokushin and Ju Jutsu made that term popular no?

[SenseiJ]

I'm in Central New York.

[tonydee]

At what dan level do you think it is appropriate to call a teacher a master?...I know many schools including Kajukenpo, Oh Do Kwan, Song Ahm, and Tang Soo do, allow their fourth degrees to be called master. I dont believe that a fourth degree has enough experience to be called master.

What are your opinions kind people?

I think your question gets off to a bad start by limiting the answer. For me, the term master has certain connotations, and should be awarded when someone has achieved a certain level of ability, insight, and character (confidence, determination). What dan level might roughly correspond varies wildly between schools. Indeed, in many schools the standard of practitioners at the same dan level can vary too.

That said, my old school would consider someone of 4th dan to be a master - the only person at that level locally had been the local chief instructor for about 20 years beforehand, kept at 2nd dan by an 8th dan who didn't like sharing "power" (or money, apparently), before splitting off his own school and (opaquely) rising a couple dans in a couple years (and a couple more not too long after that). Dans and titles are all politics to me, and I'm unashamedly cynical about all three .

Cheers,

Tony

[Ichi_Geki]

At what dan level do you think it is appropriate to call a teacher a master?...I know many schools including Kajukenpo, Oh Do Kwan, Song Ahm, and Tang Soo do, allow their fourth degrees to be called master. I dont believe that a fourth degree has enough experience to be called master.

What are your opinions kind people?

I think your question gets off to a bad start by limiting the answer. For me, the term master has certain connotations, and should be awarded when someone has achieved a certain level of ability, insight, and character (confidence, determination). What dan level might roughly correspond varies wildly between schools. Indeed, in many schools the standard of practitioners at the same dan level can vary too.

That said, my old school would consider someone of 4th dan to be a master - the only person at that level locally had been the local chief instructor for about 20 years beforehand, kept at 2nd dan by an 8th dan who didn't like sharing "power" (or money, apparently), before splitting off his own school and (opaquely) rising a couple dans in a couple years (and a couple more not too long after that). Dans and titles are all politics to me, and I'm unashamedly cynical about all three .

Cheers,

Tony

Please feel free to express your opinion in a vast way. You do not need to limit your answer, if you wish to express it.

I gave a few examples, I was not about to list every martial art, and I said MOST schools reward a 4th dan to the title master. And in my opinion...NO ONE should have that title...Even at a hanshi level.

[tonydee]

Please feel free to express your opinion in a vast way. You do not need to limit your answer, if you wish to express it.

Well, to elaborate on what I said above, I consider that a master should have integrated their art to the stage that they are able to use it instinctively and spontaneously and dynamically affect its optimal responses in any given situation. That said, not all arts have equally good sets of responses to choose from in certain situations, nor is everyone's body equal, but that is judging the art or person and not the mastery. Of course, mastery of a mickey-mouse art is worthless too, so some criterion re general utility needs to be factored in, but I can't be bothered to try to express it exactly - let common sense suffice!

Simplified, mastery requires an absolute confidence in and knowledge of your art, so that you express it instinctively and operate at a higher conceptual level, able to express and achieve your own will as to the evolving situation and outcome.

I gave a few examples, I was not about to list every martial art, and I said MOST schools reward a 4th dan to the title master. And in my opinion...NO ONE should have that title...Even at a hanshi level.

I can't agree... I think some very few people really are masters in every sense of the word that matters to me. Is your objection one of personal values (i.e. concern about your relationship to the master... what acknowledging someone as master takes from your self-determination in their presence? possibly preserving a religious or idealogical freedom?)? Or do you just think nobody's that good a fighter?

Cheers,

Tony

[ninjanurse]

Respect is earned by actions not a title or rank and what you call me does not change who I am as a person or martial artist. Rely on the substance, not the word.

[Ichi_Geki]

I gave a few examples, I was not about to list every martial art, and I said MOST schools reward a 4th dan to the title master. And in my opinion...NO ONE should have that title...Even at a hanshi level.

I can't agree... I think some very few people really are masters in every sense of the word that matters to me. Is your objection one of personal values (i.e. concern about your relationship to the master... what acknowledging someone as master takes from your self-determination in their presence? possibly preserving a religious or idealogical freedom?)? Or do you just think nobody's that good a fighter?

Cheers,

Tony

First of all There will always be some one working to be better than the next. I believe one can have mastery of an art, but yet they should not be called master. Even members of a hanshi status say they are nothing more than a mere student.

I believe once you become a so called master, than you feel you can take a break and you may go lax, this is unacceptable, a Teacher should be in front or alongside his students training even harder than his students... but like I said, I believe once one gets that status as a master...they believe their training and learning days are over...some may not think this way, but I know the majority that I have met do believe this.

[Montana]

In the system that I practice, "Master" is reserved for 7th Dan and above. Sensei is "technically" awarded for 3rd Dan and above, but it's OK to call the head of the dojo (1st-2nd Dan) sensei.