MA vs General strength

[RichardZ]

(5) Last but not least, remember that it always doesn't have to be about fighting. De-escalating the situation verbally can work wonders, whether it's in a friendly way or an authoritative way. Your tongue is your first and best defense in most cases.

I'll drink to that. Having done it once on a crowded train when a violent sounding drunk decided I was who he wanted to rant at. In the end he left saying "have a good day man" and I was left being thanked by half the other people there haha.

I had many such that I cannot begin to remember-account.

This is where I have always said, martial arts isnt only about physical confrontations. It also teaches (should) a discipline when NOT to fight.

[DWx]

How would you defend yourself against someone the size and possible strength of a Ronnie Coleman?

Scream my head off and hope somebody comes to rescue me! I don't imagine that he would run particularly fast either so after screaming (or whilst) run as fast as possible in the other direction.

I guess the only really viable area to strike the guy would be his head because you can't bulk up muscle there, everywhere else on the guy is just solid.

[joesteph]

When I weight-trained, I followed the Mr. Olympia (higher than the Mr. Universe), and Coleman was the winner year after year. At a height of 5'11", his competition weight was 280 (incredible, as most other competitors were about 240), but he kept his muscular definition. Off-season, his weight topped 300 lbs.

I a man of Coleman's solid mass can't be "defused" through non-violent methods, I can only guess at a strong kick to the knee, such as the JKD front kick that turns into a side kick ("screwdriver" as it's been called on YouTube), or a JKD-style side kick that's downward on the knee to cause maximum joint damage. Then run for your life.

If such a man is reaching for you, finger Chin-Na, as my self-defense jujitsu sensei showed me, would be to seize at least one finger of the moving hand (you'd better be fast!) a split-second before seizing the wrist with the other hand, and do a downward movement to break the finger. Again, you then run for your life.

If it's a punch or kick coming, the best you can do, as I see it, is evade (I don't know if you could successfully block such a powerful thing) and escape. Whatever the aerobic ability of such a large man in terms of chasing after you, it's likely that if you run he'll won't follow.

There is a caveat here. A track coach who had coached at my school in the past has trained football players, large men to be sure, in sprinting. The chances of someone who's large and has sprinting training, such as a football player, being able to catch you is there despite his bulk.

[tallgeese]

Good point, and often overlooked. Just because a body builder is bulky does not mean that he can't fly down the straight aways for short durations. Look at the 40 times of most mass based athletes at a high level, even amateur, and you'll see some impressive numbers.

If you judge that tactic wrong you can have a massive opponent in a superior position over you. And now you're blindsided and gassed.

This is another area where I'll preach escalation of weapons. You can clearly articulate the size difference and you're fear that empty handed skill will be useless. I'll grant, a joe and others have mentioned, there are weapons to try unarmed but they should, in my opinion, be secondary to laying your hands on a weapon that serves as a force multiplier or gains you distance.

There's a reason there are weight classes in combat sports, it matters. Massive size and strength can really hack away at a skill level difference. Why take that risk when confronted with an opponent like we're talking about hypothetically when you're legally justified in escalating to some form of intermediate weapon?

In the case of a guy Coleman's size who was really wanting to put it to me, I'd even consider deadly force. Knife him, shoot him, it's better than laying hands on. Of course, if you're looking at an option like this you need to be training with that tool and mentally prepared to use it to it's maximum potential. The training you're doing with that weapon needs to be realistic as well and used against partners whose physical parameters are similar to the threat you're talking about.

For instance, I've been working on grounded weapon retention for my job for a while now. I've recently started putting some of the format to "live" testing. Parts are working well while some of the format I had theoretically envisioned came up short. So I restructured what I could and threw out what simply wasn't working for the mission I had on hand. You can't be afraid to do this. Testing this stuff as best as possible is needed when we start taking about bringing a weapon into the mix in this kind of situation.

So, I guess my long winded point is to consider moving up to weapons quickly.

[algernon]

There's a reason there are weight classes in combat sports, it matters. Massive size and strength can really hack away at a skill level difference. Why take that risk when confronted with an opponent like we're talking about hypothetically when you're legally justified in escalating to some form of intermediate weapon?

Because most of us are unarmed. It is great advise for officers, or those who are licensed to carry firearms, but in many states the only legal method of carrying a weapon is to strap it visibly to your hip, and even that can be toeing the line. In Wisconsin, electric weapons are banned outright, and even a folding knife in a pocket can find itself under the umbrella of "carrying a concealed weapon" (see 939.22(10), 941.23 and 941.295). While good articulation of one's perception of the threat will usually suffice for an officer, the rest of us are seldom given that benefit of the doubt. Grabbing impromptu weapons (sticks, rocks, bottles, chairs, books, etc.) is, of course, an option to consider, but one for which it is difficult to train; as you pointed out, one must practice with a weapon to use it effectively.

[algernon]

How would you defend yourself against someone the size and possible strength of a Ronnie Coleman?

Of course the best option for facing such a behemoth would be to get away, but that might not be possible.

The advantage of raw strength is the greatest at close quarters, so it would be best to avoid any form of grappling.

If even that is unavoidable, I would recommend an unfortunately under regarded tool: the bite. Chomp, gnaw, and tear. I've never felt a pressure point that could match up to a human bite, and biting does not require penetration through their thick muscles.

If a hand is free, try to get a digit into their eye; at the least, they will have to briefly devote a hand to protecting their face. If their testicles are within reach, squeeze them until they vomit; this could be more effective inside their pants (particularly if they are wearing heavy jeans), but your hand could become entangled.

My point is that close quarters and ground fighting do not have to be limited to joint manipulations, throws, and choke holds. You never see martial artists bite, even when the opportunity and necessity both present themselves. That is because we don't train to. Anyone concerned with self defense should actively practice these "dirty" tricks. They don't require skill, but that's exactly what makes them effective. If your skill is not enough, don't rely on it. Bite and squeeze. Shriek for help, while you are at it.

[tallgeese]

If you're lucky enough to live in a concieled carry state then you've got the option. For everyone else, a pocket knife is rarely considered a concieled weapon, and legislatin of having them is pretty rare if its something reasonable.

It's a good option if you realize the limitations. Also, consider OC spray some form of baton or generalized stick training for pretty easy makeshift access to something that you'd have a reasonable amount of luck using in the same way.

Armed or unarmed is a decision that goes beyond gun or no gun. As long as force used is reasonably justified, officer or no you're on pretty good ground.

[tonydee]

Been a meandering thread. Re joint locking a stronger person - wife to husband - I think the best thing is to not give up, and use it as a great chance to learn. I'd guess my hapkido master in Sydney weighs about 55kg - he's kind of skinny - while most of his Korean peers (in Korea, and as a 6th dan when I was training with him) is dominated by pretty solid guys who'd probably be a bit taller on average too. My master found he couldn't outpower them - even with a wrist escape - he had to really make sure he was using leverage effectively, and think things through much more carefully and thoroughly than the average. One exercise he had us do was have someone hold really hard, deliberately anticipating and resisting the technique, and have us work it around until we could make it work. This involved various insights, like bending the legs before an upward motion, so the arm could be tucked in to the torso firmly without resistance before the legs did the lifting. Learning the right timing for a push-then-pull (or vice versa) that gets the opponent's initial resistance to coincide with the reversal. Finding an angle that twists and destabilises the opponent. Using the straightening of your legs to effectively turn the hips. Directing force perpendicular to the line of their feet, so they have to step off that centre and can be manipulated while a foot is lifted. Grabbing the wrist-grabbed hand with your free hand, so the arms can support each other in a movement. This list goes on and on, but it's the process that's important: take what you know, derive what you don't yet, and nut it out until it really works for you. If you can't find anything, then look to other techniques you know and see if some of the principles can't be adapted. Look for more variations on your escape - or better yet the lock itself - and see if they hold clues.

Separately, fighting someone big can be intimidating, but I don't see it as an actual problem. The correlation isn't that high. I'd rather fight a Mr Utah who seemingly knows relatively little about martial arts than the diminutive Benny Urquidez, even at his age. I wouldn't even preemptively adapt my technique or tactics... as per KarateEd's excellent KarateForums article... dwell in "no mind", hit when I can hit - see what it does, roll with it when blocking, feel it out and adapt spontaneously. Over the years, I've built enough trust in my technique that the idea doesn't bother me....

Regards,

Tony

[Kuma]

One of my fellow students was a natural bodybuilder for a long time. Though he hasn't competed for years, he still eats healthy and trains, so he's a good 280 pounds or so. One of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, but a good tough fighter.

Being a bigger fellow, he has a lot more power than most of the others in the dojo so footwork and evasiveness becomes much more important, as well as distance and timing.

Spirit is the most important thing though. The courage to keep attacking him, never quitting, and fighting to win.

[WireFrame]

I trained with a huge greek guy for a while. He was built like a brick outhouse, and powerful too. Unfortunately he concentrated on bulk so much that he was also pretty slow.