MA vs General strength

[sensei8]

I dont consider body builders as having strength. They do not work on proper strength training as much as bulk-size-look.

That's a great point. I was amazed when I discovered that not all body builders have physical strength. That seemed like an impossible thing for me to comprehend at first, but, it was true!

But man oh man. Their bulk sizes are intimidating enough to make one to be cautioned. Example....

WOW!

[bushido_man96]

I dont consider body builders as having strength. They do not work on proper strength training as much as bulk-size-look.

They are strong, whether you think they are or not. Even though they aren't in the same class of strength that power lifters are, they are still strong people, and likely still stronger than the average person who doesn't weight train, or just the average weight trainer. I know of a few guys who competed in body building competitons around my area, and they were all pushing around a lot more weight than I was.

[RichardZ]

I dont consider body builders as having strength. They do not work on proper strength training as much as bulk-size-look.

They are strong, whether you think they are or not. Even though they aren't in the same class of strength that power lifters are, they are still strong people, and likely still stronger than the average person who doesn't weight train, or just the average weight trainer. I know of a few guys who competed in body building competitons around my area, and they were all pushing around a lot more weight than I was.

Well, I, for one, have pushed more weight than many who had double my size in muscle.

The term "paper tiger" comes to mind.

Also, at a gym, some of these "bulk masters", tend to train with weight under the same course as those before them. Lots of reps and much jerking, smooth, continuous moving actions.

Edited November 24, 2009 by RichardZ

[joesteph]

I dont consider body builders as having strength. They do not work on proper strength training as much as bulk-size-look.

They are strong, whether you think they are or not. Even though they aren't in the same class of strength that power lifters are, they are still strong people, and likely still stronger than the average person who doesn't weight train, or just the average weight trainer. I know of a few guys who competed in body building competitons around my area, and they were all pushing around a lot more weight than I was.

Well, I, for one, have pushed more weight than many who had double my size in muscle.

The term "paper tiger" comes to mind.

Also, at a gym, some of these "bulk masters", tend to train with weight under the sme ocurse as those before them. Lots of reps and much jerking, smooth, continuous moving actions.

This is an interesting focus in the thread, to me, in that I weight-trained with free weights and cables for twenty years. At 5'6", nearly age 33, I weighed what I did at age sixteen, 110lbs. During those weight-training years, my bodyweight hit 185 and I was benching 235 for six reps--at age fifty-two.

I wouldn't say I was a "true" bodybuilder, since they actually "body sculpt," such as the small waistline despite bodyweight, and the focus on specific muscles, both upper and lower body, for mass and that "ripped" look. Many also take steroids, which I never did. There's a difference between bodybuilders, who use heavy weights for multiple sets and reps, as opposed to powerlifters, who work with very few (1-3) reps of very heavy weights, although I couldn't comment on their set system. The powerlifter does not train for the aesthetic sculpted look.

A bodybuilder's muscles are not "fake"; they have true, skeletal, protein-based muscle that's capable of strength and the endurance of repeated use of that strength. That muscle means they can punch very hard, kick very hard, and do it repeatedly. If they have good technique with that muscular strength, the magnification will pulverize their opponents because they will hit like they're using well-focused hammers for fists and feet.

It seems that different members of the forums have either encountered individuals who strike them as muscular and strong or are seen by them as surprisingly lacking in strength despite their muscularity. As for me, I wish I were able to continue weight-training as well as train in the martial arts. The power enhancement weight-trained muscle would give my strikes would be tremendous.

[mr_obvious]

Well, I, for one, have pushed more weight than many who had double my size in muscle.

The term "paper tiger" comes to mind.

Also, at a gym, some of these "bulk masters", tend to train with weight under the sme ocurse as those before them. Lots of reps and much jerking, smooth, continuous moving actions.

Concur, I think.

I've put in a lot of work at the gym in the past 15 years; done a lot of experimenting with technique and nutrition. I've had people actually ask me how I've built the mass I have, while pushing (relatively) light weights. It's all in the form; and addressing both fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. Most of these guys are what I call "Ego Lifters," and true....legitimately can say they 'bench this' or 'curl that' but employ more bouncing and swinging than a circus trapeze artist. Then wonder why they can't build size.....

20 years down the line (if they keep training that way) they'll still be small, and crippled by joint problems or other consequences of poor lifting technique -- I'll still be kicking butt.

Cliff's Notes: lift and fuel properly, strength and size will come.

....and yes, size and strength can be advantageous as applied to Martial Arts. Although it's certainly not the end-all, be-all factor.

[RichardZ]

Well, I, for one, have pushed more weight than many who had double my size in muscle.

The term "paper tiger" comes to mind.

Also, at a gym, some of these "bulk masters", tend to train with weight under the sme ocurse as those before them. Lots of reps and much jerking, smooth, continuous moving actions.

Concur, I think.

I've put in a lot of work at the gym in the past 15 years; done a lot of experimenting with technique and nutrition. I've had people actually ask me how I've built the mass I have, while pushing (relatively) light weights. It's all in the form; and addressing both fast and slow twitch muscle fibers. Most of these guys are what I call "Ego Lifters," and true....legitimately can say they 'bench this' or 'curl that' but employ more bouncing and swinging than a circus trapeze artist. Then wonder why they can't build size.....

20 years down the line (if they keep training that way) they'll still be small, and crippled by joint problems or other consequences of poor lifting technique -- I'll still be kicking butt.

Cliff's Notes: lift and fuel properly, strength and size will come.

....and yes, size and strength can be advantageous as applied to Martial Arts. Although it's certainly not the end-all, be-all factor.

Thanks. my point exactly/ I guess my post was "obvious" to mr_obvious.

Edited November 24, 2009 by RichardZ

[WireFrame]

There's a man who teaches about once a month in our club, his name is Owen Murray.

His focus is entirely on street-applied karate, and is quick to point out that even a good punch direct to the solar plexus wouldn't do much to a drunk, drug-addict, or someone with a massive size advantage, or even someone wearing a thick coat.

But you don't have to be the stronger fighter to take someone down with a hit to the carotid artery or better yet the trachea. That's where technique and accuracy comes in.

Obviously this kind of thing wouldn't fly in sport karate, but in actual self-defence situations the ability (and in some cases, sheer willingness) to attack specific vulnerable spots can make all the difference, regardless of how big the opponent is.

[Kuma]

IMO....

Size is one part of the equation, but certainly a very important part. This is why combat sports have weight classes, and the old adage floats around that says "A heavyweight's jabs feel like a light-heavyweight's knockout punches."

There's a few things touched on here though that are good to remember. These aren't a catch-all by any means, but some decent generalities I think.

(1) A big guy doesn't necessarily mean a strong guy. Being involved in strength sports, I see this firsthand and see many small guys who are absolute tanks compared to big guys who are as weak as a kitten.

(2) Being big doesn't necessarily make you a good fighter. In fact, a lot of big guys I know have never even been in a fight in their lives as who's going to try to fight them? Compare that with a smaller scrappy guy who's been fighting all his life.

(3) Just because they're strong doesn't mean they don't have the same weaknesses as us. You will definitely need to pay more attention to where to hit, but stomping on an instep, kicking the shin, hitting the groin, kneeing the common peroneal, punching the solar plexus or liver, slapping the ears, gouging the eyes, and attacking the throat will all still hurt the guy no matter how strong he is. The degree of hurt may vary, but it will make them stand up and take notice.

(4) Size and strength doesn't always go hand in hand with the killer instinct. If you are ferocious and can think of nothing but tearing the guy to pieces, and his spirit isn't near where yours is, you can break him mentally.

(5) Last but not least, remember that it always doesn't have to be about fighting. De-escalating the situation verbally can work wonders, whether it's in a friendly way or an authoritative way. Your tongue is your first and best defense in most cases. It can also be your worst enemy if you use it incorrectly.

[WireFrame]

(5) Last but not least, remember that it always doesn't have to be about fighting. De-escalating the situation verbally can work wonders, whether it's in a friendly way or an authoritative way. Your tongue is your first and best defense in most cases.

I'll drink to that. Having done it once on a crowded train when a violent sounding drunk decided I was who he wanted to rant at. In the end he left saying "have a good day man" and I was left being thanked by half the other people there haha.

[sensei8]

Previously in this thread/topic I linked a pic of Ronnie Coleman who was MR. Universe several times over.

Question to KF members:

How would you defend yourself against someone the size and possible strength of a Ronnie Coleman?

His girth is quite intimidating; or it can be.

Here's the link again...