MA vs General strength

[RichardZ]

I know a few females whom tried to do MMA-BJJ, ground arts. They didn't fair well being that it required some strength. These females had some great striking ability and surprise methods.

[bushido_man96]

There are some who are good at it, though. Cyborg Santos comes to mind. Kathy Long has also started training for ground fighting.

[RichardZ]

There are some who are good at it, though. Cyborg Santos comes to mind. Kathy Long has also started training for ground fighting.

Pound for pound, when it comes to strength and/or musle, realistically, females will not be as strong as males.

Now, I am not saying, with training in skill sets, they are not good martial artists. There are some excellant female martial artists out there.

But the strength equation seems to be agianst their favor.

Therefore, I wanted to add surprise into this, as I did not want it to be misconstrued that strngth is ALL that is needed.

[ShoriKid]

Tactics and surprise are seperate factors and while they can help elevate, or depress your own fighting ability, they don't change the techniques you bring and the engine you are powering them with. Physically superior opponents, with strength or speed, have an advantage that you have to over come with skill. And that advantage of skill has to be exponetially greater than the physical advantage of the opponent.

BB of C

The same thing can also be applied to grappling. How many people here have seen a 130 pound man tap out a 220 pound man in a BJJ roll? I've seen both of my brothers (who are the same size) do it to two different people.

That is what I think of strength advantage when strength advantage is alone.

What happens to the 130 pounder once the 220 pounder has aquire some skill? Not the same level, but beyond rank amature? The task becomes progressively harder, and your 130 pounder will lose long before the 220 pounder is at the same level of skill.

That is the point, to beat a strength gap you have to have overwhelming skill. Not the same level of skill, but much higher the more weight you give up.

JusticeZero

Seems that strength and mass matter more in ground-wrestling than in standup, though it does matter everywhere. Tactical considerations also matter, and those are very hard to show 'in the ring'. You can get very little leverage against an opponent's mind in a judged and ruled duel.

More apparent, but strength has a lot of advantages in stand up fighting, primarily in power. One shot knockout power, naturally heavy hands, is just as deadly as a powerful hit from techniques. Striking arts still use weight classes for a reason.

We're not getting into 'tactical considerations', strength, or physical advantage at least, is the issue. I'd also strongly argue that you very much apply 'tactics' to a ring bound fight, and you had better be applying leverage against the opponent's mind. Taking them out of their comfort zone is just that.

RichardZ

Ah! According to this, it seems muscle is needed 2x more than skill per ratio. therefor muscle is twice as important.

So therefore, if you have 2x skill and 1x muscle, hmmmn

What if you had 3x muscle going against someone with 1x skill?

I think your missing the point I was trying to make. It can be a hard thing to explain at times in person, let alone over the internet.

Keeping M=muscle, S=Skill, F=Fighting ability

You have two fighters.

Fighter A(FA) has M-2, S-2 so M(2)+S=F is 2(2)+2=6

Figther B(FB) has M-3, S-2 so M(2)+S=F is 3(2)+2=8

Now lets change them a bit.

FA has M-2, S-3, so F=7

FB has M-4, S-1, so F=9

To change it again

FA has M-2, S-5(for this say really skilled now), so F=9

FB has M-5(fo this say really strong), S-2, so F=12

I am not saying that skill cannot over come strength. I never have. I've seen plenty of examples of when it did. I've also seen plenty of examples when it didn't as well. Musclar strength is an advantage. One that is difficult to over come. I get very frustrated when people who should know better continue to perpetuate the myth that skill always over comes strength. That with a few well drilled techniques you can easily dispatch anyone, no matter their size in a fight. I'm sorry, but it just isn't that easy. You have to realistically look at what your techniques can accomplish under stress and in less than optimal circumstances. Part of that means facing attackers who are bigger, faster, stronger than you are and have enough skill to use those attributes. Surprise may be nice, and it may matter in the opening gambit. But, if you don't end the confrontation right then, or gain a very, very signifigant advantage you're in the mix. And once your in, your facing those superior attributes. training students to believe otherwise does them a great disservice.[/b]

[RichardZ]

ShoriK, I wasnt missing the point, I was just adding extra variables.

[Jay]

For this reason I try not to implement locks as defenses anymore. Im pretty small for a guy. I never could put the locks on when I was less strong. After a few years of going to the gym I can make them work.

That doesn't mean I would use them though.

The simplest defense is to just hit them end of problem. That is why I don't like locks being taught as self defense techniques. Hitting is just more efficient.

[tallgeese]

In most circumstances, Jay, I agree with you. And this coming from a guy who's done a lot of joint manipulation over the years.

The one circumstances where they come into their own, even more than hitting, is in defense against weapons. In most cases, just hitting back will get you cut or beat with a stick more, or shot, ect.

Joint manip here comes into play because isolating the weapons becomes primary. For this, they really become preeminent.

[joesteph]

There's a female friend who's 5'9" and can't weigh more than 130. She loves judo and has been doing it since she was a young girl. I'm 5'6", but I weigh 190, and I'm certain I'm much stronger than she is.

We teach together at the same high school, and O Soto Gari came up during lunch. She was fast, and her technique was smooth as Kentucky Bourbon; she had me right about the spot where, one inch more, and I'd have fallen right over. If she had used force for the full throw, I'd have flown.

Obviously, if it had been an actual situation and a man of 190lbs punched her, that her MA abilities didn't help her slip the shot, it would be a different story, but if she were in an altercation and acted rapidly, with the skill level that she has, her technique would, in my eyes, have sent her assailant in one direction while she took off in the other.

[bushido_man96]

I agree with ShoriKid's points so far.

Here is a vid that made its rounds a few years ago, but it is a good illustration of what we are discussing here.

Video:

This is Pedro Sauer vs. Lance Bachelor, who was Mr. Utah 1992. What most people will see in this match is that the little guy won. What you have to sit back and realize are a few things, though:

1. How many of us are Pedro Sauer? Ok, with that said...

2. This fight went for a little while. If Pedro Sauer is that good, and it took Sauer that long to overcome a stregth advantage, then it should be something that is taken seriously into consideration by any fighter in any situation.

[RichardZ]

I dont consider body builders as having strength. They do not work on proper strength training as much as bulk-size-look.