Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

[sensei8]

It depends on how you approach your art: as a "do" or as a "jutsu."

Can a martial art have BOTH?

My Soke explained this to us once....or twice...or a zillion...or....

"There's a reason as to why our style is named Shindokan Karate-Do! The jutsu is alive in the 'Karate' and at the same time, the 'Do' is alive as it re-centers us continuously."

[Kuma]

I definitely think a martial art can have both. You just cannot lose sight of the fact that first and foremost you're training in a system that is designed for combat against another person with the thought of causing that person injury and/or death.

You can get fit by getting a gym membership and working with a personal trainer. You can become a better person by joining a church and being proactive with it or doing lots of volunteer work. You can build self confidence by speaking in front of large amounts of people and doing things you normally wouldn't do. Anything you can get in the martial arts you can get doing something else.

Except for one key thing. And this is something that brings us all together. This is the factor that makes all of us alike in one respect: we're all training in a system that's designed for combat against another person with the thought of causing that person injury and/or death. THIS is what makes Muay Thai and Tai Chi similar. This is what makes Aikido and Tae Kwon Do similar. This is what makes Escrima and Iaijutsu alike. Yes, they all develop different attributes and have different approaches but that one sole factor is what ties it all together.

So yes, you can train for fitness or fun or whatever it is you do. The moment you stop thinking of it as a system of combat though is the moment it stops being what it was designed to do. In a shooting competition you might have a guy blowing away skeets all day long, but at the end he still knows when he takes that shotgun home it still has the potential to kill someone. And like it or not, shooting those skeets is training him to do just that. That is what a martial art is. It might be fun to play with and enjoy a good time with, but at the end of the day when you take it home with you you have to respect what it can actually do. Otherwise, like a careless gun owner, it could have dire consequences.

[Toptomcat]

Getting back on topic:

I never understood why certain styles of karate got attached to one particular style of sparring to begin with. As many have said, none of them can truly be a real combat experience: each set of sparring rules has ways in which they approach a combat closely and distantly. Why, then, lock every student of your style from now until the end of time into the same set of strengths and weaknesses, always knowing certain aspects of true combat and remaining ignorant in others? That's all choosing One True Set of sparring rules accomplishes. ANY set of sparring rules becomes a waste of time if it's all you ever do! Every karateka should spar under every set of rules, getting considerable experience in each of them. Train stop-and-start point for its great lessons in distancing, openings, movement, and getting the first strike. Train continuous point for its lessons in how to use and defend against combinations, control a chaotic and fast-moving situation, and deal with head strikes in a reasonably unrestricted situation. Train full contact/knockdown for its lessons in fighting spirit, how to take a hit, effective body punching, and the physical toughness it confers.

Find your opposite number in the karate community and get him to show you what he does and why he does it! I guarantee you'll learn something about your strengths and limitations. Don't get stuck in some martial echo chamber, hearing only things you know you agree with already. Get out there and learn something.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Getting back on topic:

I never understood why certain styles of karate got attached to one particular style of sparring to begin with. As many have said, none of them can truly be a real combat experience: each set of sparring rules has ways in which they approach a combat closely and distantly. Why, then, lock every student of your style from now until the end of time into the same set of strengths and weaknesses, always knowing certain aspects of true combat and remaining ignorant in others? That's all choosing One True Set of sparring rules accomplishes. ANY set of sparring rules becomes a waste of time if it's all you ever do! Every karateka should spar under every set of rules, getting considerable experience in each of them. Train stop-and-start point for its great lessons in distancing, openings, movement, and getting the first strike. Train continuous point for its lessons in how to use and defend against combinations, control a chaotic and fast-moving situation, and deal with head strikes in a reasonably unrestricted situation. Train full contact/knockdown for its lessons in fighting spirit, how to take a hit, effective body punching, and the physical toughness it confers.

Find your opposite number in the karate community and get him to show you what he does and why he does it! I guarantee you'll learn something about your strengths and limitations. Don't get stuck in some martial echo chamber, hearing only things you know you agree with already. Get out there and learn something.

Good post Toptomcat.

As far as why historically certain styles of karate have found themselves practicing kumite the way they do - most of it is down to PR.

When Karate was first introduced to mainland Japan it had to stand up against already popular art forms like Judo and Kendo which, had at their heart "Shiai" or competitive bouts. To be successful, karate needed to follow the same lines.

Point fighting was karates answer to this.

Subsequently, the main Japanese groups - JKA, JKF etc. adopted this as their "Shiai" Kumite style.

I think however it is important to bear in mind that a good dojo will differentiate between the two.

In my group for example "Shiai" is looked at as an important conditioning tool, however we supplement this with a good amount of Dojo "Jiyu" kumite or free fighting.

The two are quite separate in my eyes.

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

This is the factor that makes all of us alike in one respect: we're all training in a system that's designed for combat against another person with the thought of causing that person injury and/or death. THIS is what makes Muay Thai and Tai Chi similar. This is what makes Aikido and Tae Kwon Do similar. This is what makes Escrima and Iaijutsu alike. Yes, they all develop different attributes and have different approaches but that one sole factor is what ties it all together.

So yes, you can train for fitness or fun or whatever it is you do. The moment you stop thinking of it as a system of combat though is the moment it stops being what it was designed to do. In a shooting competition you might have a guy blowing away skeets all day long, but at the end he still knows when he takes that shotgun home it still has the potential to kill someone. And like it or not, shooting those skeets is training him to do just that. That is what a martial art is. It might be fun to play with and enjoy a good time with, but at the end of the day when you take it home with you you have to respect what it can actually do. Otherwise, like a careless gun owner, it could have dire consequences.

Agreed,

I am pretty sure it was Sakagami sensei who said once - The difference between Karate and dancing is intent.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

I definitely think a martial art can have both. You just cannot lose sight of the fact that first and foremost you're training in a system that is designed for combat against another person with the thought of causing that person injury and/or death.

Absolutely!!!

Except for one key thing. And this is something that brings us all together. This is the factor that makes all of us alike in one respect: we're all training in a system that's designed for combat against another person with the thought of causing that person injury and/or death. THIS is what makes Muay Thai and Tai Chi similar. This is what makes Aikido and Tae Kwon Do similar. This is what makes Escrima and Iaijutsu alike. Yes, they all develop different attributes and have different approaches but that one sole factor is what ties it all together.

I couldn't agree more here. When it comes down to it, you have really got to the meat of the discussion here.

Why, then, lock every student of your style from now until the end of time into the same set of strengths and weaknesses, always knowing certain aspects of true combat and remaining ignorant in others? That's all choosing One True Set of sparring rules accomplishes. ANY set of sparring rules becomes a waste of time if it's all you ever do! Every karateka should spar under every set of rules, getting considerable experience in each of them. Train stop-and-start point for its great lessons in distancing, openings, movement, and getting the first strike. Train continuous point for its lessons in how to use and defend against combinations, control a chaotic and fast-moving situation, and deal with head strikes in a reasonably unrestricted situation. Train full contact/knockdown for its lessons in fighting spirit, how to take a hit, effective body punching, and the physical toughness it confers.

Great suggestions, too, Toptomcat.

[bushido_man96]

It depends on how you approach your art: as a "do" or as a "jutsu."

Not everyone is in it for the "do."

I've been reading in Harry Cook's Shotokan Karate, A Precise History. There is a point made in the book that the Okinawan people, in general, were a nice, polite society as a whole, and followed the Confucian beliefs that I think came from their contact with the Chinese. So....

...I don't really think that all of the moral/ethical underpinnings that came out of Okinawan-based styles have anything to really do with the practice of the style itself, but more to do with the culture of the people. When you take something into a different culture, I think things start to take on characteristics of the culture that they are in.

Just a thought...

[sensei8]

I never understood why certain styles of karate got attached to one particular style of sparring to begin with.

Possibly they LIKED it! Their style of sparring fit into their needs! The Kumite they practiced was effective!

These are just some of the possible reasons as to why certain styles of Karate "get attached to one particular style of sparring."

[bushido_man96]

I never understood why certain styles of karate got attached to one particular style of sparring to begin with.

Possibly they LIKED it! Their style of sparring fit into their needs! The Kumite they practiced was effective!

These are just some of the possible reasons as to why certain styles of Karate "get attached to one particular style of sparring."

And aside from this, competition drives a vast amount of people, and Martial Artist fall into this, as well. So, different ways of competing come into vogue.

[Kuma]

...I don't really think that all of the moral/ethical underpinnings that came out of Okinawan-based styles have anything to really do with the practice of the style itself, but more to do with the culture of the people. When you take something into a different culture, I think things start to take on characteristics of the culture that they are in.

Just a thought...

I agree with that, that's why you see a lot of samurai principles being put on something that started off as Okinawan. It's interesting to compare the differences between someone like Funakoshi who, with his background, made the perfect example of what a "Japanese karateka" should be like (i.e. samurai ideals, honorable, polite, etc.) and compare him to say Chotoku Kyan who by all accounts was a highly talented scoundrel and dirty fighter (and quite an interesting and insightful guy).