Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

[Kuma]

Like I said, a lot of it depends on the actual case itself which is why I would be interested to read more about it. Were they armed and dangerous, or just refusing to listen? Did they seriously injure their victim or just committed the act itself? Were they trying to escape (though it doesn't sound like it if they just weren't stopping)?

We can armchair quarterback it to death without the right details. In my state deadly force for that situation would be extremely touchy with just what we know right now.

Edited November 1, 2009 by Kuma

[bushido_man96]

Yes, I agree. It would be beneficial if details were available. If not, oh well.

[Killer Miller]

No guys, I'm not going to provide more details. As I said before, it was to make a point. And your responses further solidify my point. The thread refers to our art as being "a waste of time!" The subject line is insulting to our art in the first place. You have stated in your replies that the story I referred to is too excessive, but yet it's OK to beat a person for and hour with sport karate. It's all about the purpose - it most definately doesn't make it "a waste of time!" Where I trained, there were special forces, police, firemen, CIA, and a few mercs as well. I would consider that depending on the rules of engagement of their profession, our art and training concepts would definately save lives...

- Killer -

[Kuma]

No guys, I'm not going to provide more details. As I said before, it was to make a point. And your responses further solidify my point. The thread refers to our art as being "a waste of time!" The subject line is insulting to our art in the first place. You have stated in your replies that the story I referred to is too excessive, but yet it's OK to beat a person for and hour with sport karate. It's all about the purpose - it most definately doesn't make it "a waste of time!" Where I trained, there were special forces, police, firemen, CIA, and a few mercs as well. I would consider that depending on the rules of engagement of their profession, our art and training concepts would definately save lives...

- Killer -

There's a huge difference between two consenting adults who are trained martial artists testing their skills against each other and a street fight. You and I both know that.

I can honestly say too, it actually proved no point at all. I can say I know someone who managed to explode someone's head using mystical Dim Mak death touches to defend the life of another, but if there's absolutely no way at all to substantiate that claim, all it becomes is one of those ubiquitous MA myths about "this guy I know is the deadliest because he trained in my martial arts system."

I'm law enforcement and military myself. I specifically train in Kyokushin not for competition but my primary focus is self-protection. We train in a way that positively improves my ability to protect myself. That's what MA training is all about.

Oh, and actually this thread was about "standard kumite" being a waste of our time, not karate itself.

[bushido_man96]

I didn't claim that your story was too excessive. Like Kuma, to hear it strikes up an interest; that is all. To me, it sounded like your friend did the right thing, but the workplace didn't think so.

[sensei8]

The thread refers to our art as being "a waste of time!" The subject line is insulting to our art in the first place.

- Killer -

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

[tonydee]

FWIW, I think non-contact or light/controlled contact sparring can be extremely effective in developing fighting ability, and much of my own training has been along those lines. I practice my basics in the air and on targets (be it hand-held or roof-hanging). In general, people who've trained with me don't question whether a pulled strike would have cleaned them up. Very occasionally, someone has to learn the hard way, last time it was a judo-karate hybrid guy whose idea of closing for a tackle was to pretend a fist infront of his nose didn't mean anything. Such is the way my original TKD school worked, and my continued expectation around sparring. I've seen what my ridge hand, palm thrust or side kick can do to 40/50/60kg punching bags - I'm not going to do that to a person just for the sake of competition. My sparring partners have probably held a focus shield while I've struck it... if they don't think it'll work in sparring they can ignore it and see what happens.

There are senior martial artists who don't consider contact sparring essential for fighting ability: for example, Hapkido Grandmaster Ji Han Jae considers the safety-necessitated compromises in sparring to be detrimental to the development of fighting ability, and has no sparring in his school.

Boards may not hit back, but that's not the point. The point is knowing that your body mechanics reliably generate serious destructive power... then in sparring, focus mitt exercises etc. you see if you can find the target without compromising those mechanics ala sports-style flicky kicks, or off timing. It's as legitimate a path towards the top of the hill as any other, though I'm certainly not saying it's the only one.

Edited November 5, 2009 by tonydee

[Wa-No-Michi]

I'm law enforcement and military myself. I specifically train in Kyokushin not for competition but my primary focus is self-protection. We train in a way that positively improves my ability to protect myself. That's what MA training is all about.

In your line of work I am sure that is what it is all about.

However - self protection isn't everyones primary reason for training in MA.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

FWIW, I think non-contact or light/controlled contact sparring can be extremely effective in developing fighting ability, and much of my own training has been along those lines...In general, people who've trained with me don't question whether a pulled strike would have cleaned them up. Very occasionally, someone has to learn the hard way, last time it was a judo-karate hybrid guy whose idea of closing for a tackle was to pretend a fist infront of his nose didn't mean anything.

This has been my experiences in my TKD training, as well. There is usually an acknowledged "respect" for kicks, especially when they are pulled off to the head, no contact is made. Sometimes, students will ignore this, and the next kick may find its mark. What I have also seen is that this kind of sparring can allow practicality to go out the window, giving way to the "flicky" stuff that you mention.

However - self protection isn't everyones primary reason for training in MA.

No, but I do think that it is a good instructor's job to make it a by-product of the training.

Edited November 5, 2009 by bushido_man96

[tallgeese]

I look at it much the same way as Kuma. I think the primary focus of ma's should always be self defense. Anything else is a by product of that.

The exceptions I'll easily give out are for arts that focus on archaic weapons. Sword arts and such almost have to be done out of a love for the weapon or culture.