Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

[bushido_man96]

Don't forget that Funakoshi was born and raised in Okinawa, as well. It is natural that he would take those ethics with him in his Karate.

Good points on Kyan, as well.

[Killer Miller]

I ran across this video and felt it is a good compilation of the real side of the Perceived Point Sparring that is also perceived as "A Waste of Time!"

As you will see that, contact still happens, hazards are quick, real and very dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA

- Killer -

[Toptomcat]

I ran across this video and felt it is a good compilation of the real side of the Perceived Point Sparring that is also perceived as "A Waste of Time!"

As you will see that, contact still happens, hazards are quick, real and very dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA

- Killer -

Unless that was one long disqualification highlight reel, the ruleset those karateka were working under has more in common with kickboxing or full contact than 'point sparring'. Even boxing and kickboxing have point systems to determine the victor should one participant fail to disable another, as appeared to be the default in those matches.

[Killer Miller]

In Point Sparring, referring to mainly JKA ruleset, there is a "fine-line" between the point system of no contact, and legal or non-legal contact. "No Contact" is a conceptual meaning, and realistalically, there is quite a bit of contact at the higher levels - we watch that pretty closely at the lower levels.

Here's the primary ruleset:

1. No Contact, within about 1/4", of the target with perfect timing, technique, and excecution that is a killing or disabling blow, is a point (full point actually).

2. If there is contact, where the intended focal point was originally open, and after execution of technique, and it was the fault of the oponent. There is no penalty. Also, if the technique execution was perfect or near perfect, you may be awarded a half or full point.

This means that at the start of the execution of the technique, the focal point was clearly open with your oponent for a good "no contact" point, and after you execute the technique, the oponent moves into the strike zone, at his fault, then there is no penalty to the Karate-ka executing the technique - and they may be awarded a point.

3. If there is contact, and the intended focal point of the technique is not open for a no contact point, the there may be a penalty or disqualification in the match.

This means that the oponent was stationary, not moving in a particular direction, and you intentionally strike the oponent, then you will be penalized. This is a fine line as well. If you move in on your oponent, say executing a lung punch with the intention that the oponent will move backwards appropriately, and the perceived focal point would normally be open, and the oponent "does not" move back out or you way, or decides to side-step for a counter, and gets blasted, there is no penalty for the attacker.

This is not the official verbiage of the ruleset, but my personal explanation of it. So as you can see, the perception of "No Contact" or "Point Sparring" not having contact, injuries, or severe harm to oponents, is seriously mis-understood - especially at higher JKA (or similar) levels.

If oponents go down hard at a blink of an eye - I guess I still don't see how the argument can still hold up as point sparring being a waste of time and obviously effective in the real world as well.

- Killer -

I ran across this video and felt it is a good compilation of the real side of the Perceived Point Sparring that is also perceived as "A Waste of Time!"

As you will see that, contact still happens, hazards are quick, real and very dangerous...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoLMIkbeBA

- Killer -

Unless that was one long disqualification highlight reel, the ruleset those karateka were working under has more in common with kickboxing or full contact than 'point sparring'. Even boxing and kickboxing have point systems to determine the victor should one participant fail to disable another, as appeared to be the default in those matches.

[Toptomcat]

*shrug*

I never personally said point sparring was a waste of time- indeed, my first post in this thread was a post endorsing it as part of a wider training regimen including other methods. The 'misconception' you seem intent on fighting isn't created out of whole cloth by those looking to befoul the reputation of point-fighters: it's a result of people having a lot of very real experience with tournaments where any degree of contact, including sweeps, will result in instant disqualification- to the obvious detriment of those participating in them. This is more common, in my experience, than the kind of more realistic and useful point karate seen in your clip.

Attempting to salvage the reputation of 'point karate' as a whole is destined to be a futile and unrewarding exercise. Defend the sparring rules and judging practices of your federation, school, or style, not point karate as a whole.

[RichardZ]

I thought standard Kumite is defense fighting. It became substandard upon competitions