Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

[Kuma]

First in regards to why some people don't condone full-contact: The strongest punch force ever recorded (if I have my statistics right) was from the fist of a karate-ka (~2000lbs/sq.in.) NOT a boxer. If someone wielding a force like that just smashed into a person's temple unrestrained like a boxer would (minus boxer gloves), the result would be murder. Personally, I would never want to participate in such things, unless I am in a life or death situation... in which case, so far, I have done just fine without practicing by beating up my dojo mates either in day to day training or in competition.

There's really no such record for that as most things like that aren't recorded. The only thing you can find in a Google search is in reference to a Martin Nildem who hit at 1940psi but there's no other mention of him anywhere on the Internet. This is mentioned often, but there's no real evidence of it.

The human body is surprisingly more resilient than you might imagine.

. Personally, I feel like the no-punching-at-face rule is even less realistic than the no-face-contact rule. It is my personal opinion that even if you think the face is "an easy target" you have to train your reaction to seeing it unguarded, or when it comes down to the wire, you'll slip up. The way to do it is to practice control, which, by the way, is useful in everyday life, even when not being attacked on the street.

Bare knuckle boxers often scored their KOs via body shots as it's a lot safer to hit someone in the body with a closed fist than it is on the jaw. I do a lot of makiwara training and bagwork and I'd still be hesitant to give someone a knockout blow on the jaw with a fist.

Just don't knock other styles' efficacy if you've never actually used them in a real life situation. Otherwise it's all just speculation on your part.

And excellent advice btw.

[Shizentai]

There's really no such record for that as most things like that aren't recorded. The only thing you can find in a Google search is in reference to a Martin Nildem who hit at 1940psi but there's no other mention of him anywhere on the Internet. This is mentioned often, but there's no real evidence of it.

Jeez, yeah, I had really hoped that I could find a link to it somewhere, but no luck. I saw a documentary some years back (long before 2006 mind you, so this could be a moot point by now either way) where a karate-ka on film produced a force measured by a piezoelectric sensor to be some number greater than 2000psi (though I forget exactly what). In the documentary the narrator had said that this may have unintentionally been the strongest punch ever recorded. Ah well, if I can't even remember how much it was or what the dude's name is, there's no way I can actually verify any of this.

lol sorry guys!

Bare knuckle boxers often scored their KOs via body shots as it's a lot safer to hit someone in the body with a closed fist than it is on the jaw. I do a lot of makiwara training and bagwork and I'd still be hesitant to give someone a knockout blow on the jaw with a fist.

Agreed. In many full-contact karate dojo, no one even practices punching "at" the opponent's face. Meanwhile, no-contact karate dojo can aim anywhere they please without harming someone. I consider this to be one advantage of not always training full contact. It allows the student to practice launching attacks to the face, and even more importantly, allows the uke to learn defensive techniques to protect himself/herself from these dangerous maneuvers.

[Zaine]

All,

I personally think that the type of sparring, kumite and competitions that follow Standard WKF, WKA etc rules are a waste of time. The "types" of Competitions I have seen advertised in which I would be disqualified in within the opening seconds. Also the fact that no thigh kicks are allowed either. This is also the reason why Other Martial Artists consider Karate as a "Soft" art.

In Boxing Bouts, it is continuous striking. Imagine a Boxing bout where once one fight has hit the other the bout is stopped they are re-centralised for the bout to begin again. You’d think this was stupid and unrealistic. So why do we "allow" it in Karate.

The One Strike = One Point Rule is useless, I've never seen this happen in a bar brawl or on a street where to "fighters" have hit once then the "fight" stopped and they restart again

Non-Contact - again this is useless especially if its 1 strike = 1 point rules, usually it’s the bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. How many times have you heard of someone breaking their wrist/foot the first time they've hit someone in a real fight. To me Non-Contact is the same as performing Kata. Board breaking - well I've never got into a fight with a piece of wood.

Semi-Contact - This is getting there as long as its not bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. I tend to use this type of Kumite for my Kids. Its more street realistic and gives Karateka an Idea of what a street confrontation would be like. Again I would compare this to Kata Bunkai classes

Full Contact or "knockdown" - This type of tournament competition is closer to "real life" personal combat, although it still in a tournament setting with rules. There is definitely no bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of fighter in this type of kumite. Also Full contact is allowed all over the body (except the joints, groin and face, in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin etc, as these are such an easy targets to hit and as it is full contact concussion or fractures may occur). This style of kumite, often, they don't award any points for controlled techniques delivered to the opponent. In fact, they usually don't award points for full-force techniques delivered to the opponent either. Instead, points are only awarded for knocking, sweeping, or throwing your opponent to the floor. Kyokushinkai and its "offshoot" karate organizations are the styles usually known to promote knockdown tournament rules.

I look forward to your responses

OSU

All in all most of these take place due to people who are in sports karate. Some of these do however teach good habits, but most times the bad ones outweigh the good. For example, in AOK tournaments one hit sparring is predomant, and this teaches students to find openings, and it's fun to do every once in awhile, in fact, my 6th - 4th kyu tests were exclusivly points sparring to exhibit the control and awareness of where the openings in the opponets stance were. That being said, as far as an in class room sparring match goes, I consider it robbing the students of a proper education when teachers don't teach their students to actually fight and use full force. Of course, the force used should be more mellow at first, building higher and higher as the student progresses in his or her system. As for the other stuff they are good training tools, but in my opinion they shouldn't be replaced with traditional fighting.

[Killer Miller]

Hmmmm...

Let's see... There was a police officer that was JKA, and his beat was Sunset and Vine in Los Angeles. Several guys were raping a woman in plain site on the sidewalk - busy street mind you. This police officer didn't have time to wait for back-up or the woman would have been dead.

The said JKA police office when to assist the woman in desperate need. The police officer put two of the attackers in the hospital and paralyzed the third for life.

So, do we beat them death for an hour with full contact, or do we potentially kill them with one or two blows...? Please don't under-estimate the devistation we can do with one or two blows that is our primary purpose of training. It has been proven, over and over, that full contact in our art results in very serious injuries - the reason for no contact. However, contact still results repeaditly when a technique is executed properly and the other guys doesn't get out of the way quick enough. Furthermore, we have had many times full contact practioners come train with us and say "you guys are too rough."

So I guess I don't see the supporting justification of comments from experience of the other side of the fence??? Of course, you could always go and compare a really bad Shotokan school, with a 5th kyu instructor, and a bunch of low belt students - and yes, there are an adbundance of bad Shotokan Dojos out there just as in any other art...

- Killer -

[Kuma]

Did the officer actually use his karate skills in that incident, or was there something more? I can tell you right now, if it's three suspects against me and there's no backup coming for me, the last thing I'll be doing is to start the incident with bare hands. Did those individuals ever attack the officer, or was there legal problems due to the fact that he did in fact paralyze one of these guys?

Also, an untrained blow can kill just as easily as a trained one. You see it occasionally in the news: two drunks decide to trade blows, one gets knocked on his duff and somehow smacks his head on the ground causing his death. Other karate styles who may do full contact kumite also have the idea of ikken hisatsu in their minds. It's not a trait solely for specific traditional karate styles.

[Killer Miller]

Yes, it was 100% karate. And yes, he was eventually retired from the force over it...

[Kuma]

It's hard to pass judgement on the guy since I don't know more about what happened and when (I can't find it anywhere on the Internet, and something like that would be big news) but if he was forced to retire over the incident chances are it was a bad case of excessive force. As disgusting as rape is and as much as we would like to kin geri their buddies off into the atmosphere, sadly it doesn't warrant jumping to deadly force. Which is what that became, as deadly force also includes serious injury which obviously occured.

So if the training you use will most likely get you in a lot of legal trouble, why train it? Not every wise guy mouthing off to you outside of a bar and taking a swing at you needs to be put in the hospital or paralyzed. Until we know more about the situation though, all we can do is "what if" it to death. When did this happen?

[Killer Miller]

You are taking the discussion Kuma a direction it was not intened to be discussed. The point was in response that point sparring type of training is "a waste of time!!!!!" This story was only to indicate the reason why it's no contact during training - and sparring and tournaments is also part of that training. But definately effective - in contrast of the original thread topic.

Also, the story I told was a fact (I personally know that as a fact). It was a long time ago and not intended for internet research to try and support it. Just interjecture to make a point...

- Killer -

[Kuma]

You are taking the discussion Kuma a direction it was not intened to be discussed. The point was in response that point sparring type of training is "a waste of time!!!!!" This story was only to indicate the reason why it's no contact during training - and sparring and tournaments is also part of that training. But definately effective - in contrast of the original thread topic.

Other karate styles have contact though, and to my knowledge no karateka has died yet in a competition. I think for certain attributes yes, it's good training, but as for what kind of fighting we as karateka should be I don't think it should be the focus. My main objective for training in karate is self-defense, and without contact self-defense training is sorely lacking. If you're afraid of getting hit (which everyone innately is) and get hit, you're most likely going to freeze up. If you've been hit many times before though and are conditioned to the contact, you'll shrug it off and attack back.

Also, the story I told was a fact (I personally know that as a fact). It was a long time ago and not intended for internet research to try and support it. Just interjecture to make a point...

- Killer -

Nothing against you, as I really enjoy many of your other posts, but stories like these that would be major news in its day that can't be confirmed always seem a bit suspect to me. You can search Google News back several decades nowadays, and especially if it was years ago when karate was the big fad (much like MMA is today) then you'd almost be guaranteed to be able to find it in the news. Not saying it didn't happen, as it is possible, I just think over the years it might have gotten blow out of proportion.

[bushido_man96]

I thought that rape did warrant a deadly force situation? It would be an interesting story to read up on, as it would provide an idea of using Martial Arts, use of force, and area laws/statutes.