Rock-Paper-Scissors Effect?

[The BB of C]

I was debating the other day with a friend of mine about how the only sure way to tell if one martial artist is better than another is for them to fight in as open of a format as possible. My friend didn't believe me and I tried to use the following explanation to prove my statement. He didn't understand what I was trying to say. I would like to see if anyone here can understand what is happening or has experienced it before or can maybe offer an explanation as to how it happens.

The analogy:

There is my little brother, Brian. My other friend, David, and Nicholas (myself). We enjoy wrestling each other. Brian and I are currently taking Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jutsu but have only been doing it for about three fourths of a year. David wrestles like a WWE performer.

Brian is 5'4 and 125 pounds.

David is 6'5 and 235 pounds.

I am 5'10 and 185 pounds.

Brian can (usually) beat Nicholas in a roll but cannot beat David.

Nicholas can (usually) beat David in a roll but cannot beat Brian.

David can (usually) beat Brian in a roll but not Nicholas.

It is a true story and it happens all the time. It's also important to note that Brian taps out other people in the roll. Some who are even bigger than David and/or some who have been rolling for a long time.

I refereed to this as the Rock-Paper-Scissors effect.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Can anyone explain it?

[algernon]

I have experienced this myself, and I expect that it is quite common. This is because a fighter's skill has limitless dimensions, not a single spectrum. To say "P can beat Q and Q can beat R, ergo P>Q" is to fail to consider the specific properties of the individual fighters that enable them to beat their opponents. Combatants have particular strengths that allow them to exploit weaknesses in certain opponents, and they have particular weaknesses that can be taken advantage of by another with the appropriate skills. To continue your analogy, scissors can cut paper, but they can be broken by rock.

While you might be able to make a linear ranking of arm wrestlers and successfully predict who will best whom, fighting is much more dynamic, employing a broad range of skills. The victor is not determined by just the levels of skill, but how each individual's "skill signature" compliments or clashes with another's.

[bushido_man96]

It appears that your rock-paper-scissors analogy here would tend to reflect each or your skills in rolling. If you go to standing up only, I would suspect you would see a different, yet similar trend, based on everyone's skills and abilities. Add another dimension, and the trend continues.

I think that the main cause of this, aside from skill, is the fact that you three have rolled together so much that you learn each other's tendencies, and your abilities to play on them is reflected in the "records" that you have against each other. As you guys learn different skills, or different ways to chain together your current skills, you may see some deviations in your "wins/losses" against particular opponents.

I think you see this kind of thing when people compete against each other in class all the time. A pecking order kind of falls into place. But I wouldn't let yourself be led into believing that it would work this way against each other if it came down to a life or death encounter for some really bizarre reason; things can change then, especially when the ideas of rules and civility get thrown by the wayside.

[sensei8]

Today A will beat B, but tomorrow, B will beat A. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose; you can't win all the time, it's just part of life and it's also a part of the martial arts. There is no way to truly know whose better because of what I said in my opening sentence, and in that, what works today doesn't always work tomorrow.

I've never beat my brother in chess....EVER! I'm no slouch at chess and that's because I've played chess serious ever since I was in high school. He's 7 years older than I. He does calculus for fun. He's a ASE certified Master Mechanic in everything. In chess, he's won numerious chess tournaments at all levels. His beaten every chess computer he's ever played. Often, he'll play against 12 or more players at the same time...and beat them all. He's never joined FIDE nor has he ever been rated, in which I'm sure he'd rate as a chess master. Point I'm making poorly is this. SKILL/KNOWLEDGE must be one of the main factors as to why I've never won one chess game against my brother. Or, I suck compared to his genius and brilliant chess abilities. I mean, he's beaten me over and over when he just had...King, Knight, Rook, and one pawn and I had everything.

Besides, when all is said and done in the martial arts....proof is on the floor!

[tallgeese]

It's not uncommon. Especially when you're talking about a small group of people who train together frequently. It's part of the reason it's good to reach out and train with others.

Lots of it has to do the tools that each bring that one or more of the others have a harder time dealing with than the others. Some people have a hard time dealing with certain tactics, some people are good at these tactics and thus give them a hard time. The same person might not be as overall skilled, but the niche their skills fit can give someone a fit.

It's the same reason that some fighters just has anthers number. They win more than they should because the skill set they bring fits into the chinks of the other's armor.

The best way to deal with this is to use it as a training tool. See why the outcome in happening that way and move to work on those aspects of your game. Again, getting out and feeling different energies will help. This will give one a more well rounded approach to applying their game. This, in turn, will translate into a better performance.