Front kick (Maegeri)

[sensei8]

Aren't the differing methodologies so wonderful?! One's just got to love it.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I don't disagree with the argument, by any means, but I'd rather just do the kick than sit around debating what it should be called. But that's just me.

I agree, at the end of the day, good instructors have a variety of ways to communicate. The most important thing is to learn from how they move. You strive to emulate them, but the Yoko geri thing goes a little further.

If for example they verbally communicate it as maegeri, but (as shown in the pinan Yondan clip) demonstrate it is a yoko geri, then there is a risk that students will miss the detail and reasoning behind why it is a yoko geri - in the first place.

As I understand it, in this case, its all about not changing the position of the hips from the preceding technique. They remain side on (to the opponent (shomen in terms of the the embusen)) because you have just done a chudan barai to the side (not turning hips into the technique but away from it to deflect it), then countering with a kick. After the block, you do not turn your hips toward your attacker before letting rip with the kick - as that would be too slow.

Therefore to some it is a maegeri, but to the better informed it is a yoko geri.

Some will therefore perform the kata more correctly than others.

WNM

[rogue2257]

Haha now see, the students I deal with have difficulty enough trying to understand the difference between mawashi geri and the stomping yoko geri.

I think that convoluting the names, and referring to more than one kick as "yoko geri" won't help, but only make an additional barrier that the newer and troubled students have to work though.

On top of that, to be perfectly honest, we simply don't practice any front kick type action to the side at any point during our warm ups, one step fighting, or kata. Not to say that we couldn't, we just don't regularly practice anything like that.

[Wa-No-Michi]

That surprises me.

Most of my students (kids included) understand.

They understand that yoko geri is a "category" of kick - to the side rather than finite description as to how it is done.

As a shoto-ka you would probably perform a yoko keagi here. By definition, this is a side rising kick.

Almost same bio mechanics but not quite.

Always best to explore all options.

This is where good instructors are worth their weight.

WNM

[rogue2257]

I should have clarified, I was referring to confusion and difficulty understanding the the proper body mechanics of the actions. Or in other words, difficulty in grasping the differences between how the stomping and roundhouse kicks function. They know that the kicks are different, but they have trouble making their body do the kick that their brain wants them to.

They understand that yoko geri is a "category" of kick - to the side rather than finite description as to how it is done.

I'm sure that they understand that because that is how it has been defined to them. This gets back to how you define the kick. If you define mae geri as a category for all kicks to the front of the body, that is how it will be understood. On the other hand, if it is a term designated for a specific kick, it will be understood THAT way. And similarly for the yoko geri, of course. The way that a concept is taught is how it will be learned.

Your students KNOW that any kick to the side is yoko geri. Students at my school KNOW that yoko geri is a stomping kick to the side of the body. Neither is necessarily wrong, and I'm sure we both do very similar actions, but the fact that we have defined them differently means that the understanding of them is different.

[Rateh]

A front kick performed to the side of the body I would call a front kick to the side. A front kick performed at a 45 degree angle (half way between your front and your side) I call a front kick to the 45.

In pyong 2 there are two front kicks to the 45. And that is what we call them.

I don't think someone who calls any kick to the side of their body a side kick regardless of what type it is, is better informed, rather they categorize their kicks differently. First by the direction, then by the technique. I and everyone else I have worked with classify first by technique, then by direction. Either way works so long as everyone you are speaking with classifies it the same way.

Rather than "direction of kick - type of kick" I use "movement - type of kick - direction of kick (if different then normal)". Where movement would be things like "front leg" (kick with the front leg and place your foot back down in the same spot), "stepping" (kick with the back leg and place your foot forward), "pop-up" (bring the back knee up, jump, kick with the other leg, land) etc.

So I can be very precise with combinations such as "front leg front kick, standing front kick to the 45, stepping round kick", which means "perform a kick with your toes up striking with the ball of your foot toward the front with your front leg, then put your foot back down where it was, perform a kick with your toes up striking with the ball of your foot at a 45 degree angle with your back foot, then put your foot back down where it was, perform a kick with your hip turned over striking with the the instep toward the front with your back foot, then put your foot down in front of you".

When just the "type of kick" is stated without a direction and sometimes without a movement, the direction and movement are assumed based what is most common. (So when performing warm-ups simply stating "front kick" is assumed to be a front kick to the front with the back leg placing your leg back behind you after each kick)

For the way you categorize them, WNM, if just the direction is stated without a specific foot position/striking surface, is the position assumed based on what is most common for a kick in that direction?

[bushido_man96]

A front kick performed to the side of the body I would call a front kick to the side. A front kick performed at a 45 degree angle (half way between your front and your side) I call a front kick to the 45.

I do the same way. In English, even. I don't think that explaining that it is a front kick to the side, when in a backstance, becomes all that necessary, for the main reason that it just makes sense for a front leg front kick from a back stance to be done that way.

[bushido_man96]

I would agree with Bushido_man.

As I see it Axe kick is not so much a kick forward but a Kick in a downward direction.

In Japanese it is referred to "Otoshi Geri" literally drop kick.

WNM

In the TKD school I attend now, my instructor calls them "drops." I had never heard them referred to as that until I came to this school. They were just called axe kicks. So now, I use both terminology.

[Wa-No-Michi]

A front kick performed to the side of the body I would call a front kick to the side. A front kick performed at a 45 degree angle (half way between your front and your side) I call a front kick to the 45.

In pyong 2 there are two front kicks to the 45. And that is what we call them.

I don't think someone who calls any kick to the side of their body a side kick regardless of what type it is, is better informed, rather they categorize their kicks differently. First by the direction, then by the technique. I and everyone else I have worked with classify first by technique, then by direction. Either way works so long as everyone you are speaking with classifies it the same way.

Rather than "direction of kick - type of kick" I use "movement - type of kick - direction of kick (if different then normal)". Where movement would be things like "front leg" (kick with the front leg and place your foot back down in the same spot), "stepping" (kick with the back leg and place your foot forward), "pop-up" (bring the back knee up, jump, kick with the other leg, land) etc.

So I can be very precise with combinations such as "front leg front kick, standing front kick to the 45, stepping round kick", which means "perform a kick with your toes up striking with the ball of your foot toward the front with your front leg, then put your foot back down where it was, perform a kick with your toes up striking with the ball of your foot at a 45 degree angle with your back foot, then put your foot back down where it was, perform a kick with your hip turned over striking with the the instep toward the front with your back foot, then put your foot down in front of you".

When just the "type of kick" is stated without a direction and sometimes without a movement, the direction and movement are assumed based what is most common. (So when performing warm-ups simply stating "front kick" is assumed to be a front kick to the front with the back leg placing your leg back behind you after each kick)

For the way you categorize them, WNM, if just the direction is stated without a specific foot position/striking surface, is the position assumed based on what is most common for a kick in that direction?

In my experience in Japanese Karate, techniques are described using both direction or area in which techniques are to be done as well as method.

For example Jodan (upper) age (rising) uke (block), is a head block, but so is Jodan (upper) soto (outer) uke (block), but they are different techniques done in the same area.

In answer to your question - for maegeri, the most typical foot position is ball of foot toes up (josokutei)- if you asked someone in my group to just do a maegeri they would probably do it to this way.

If you asked them to do a side kick they would probably assume you mean for them to use Sokuto or edge off foot.

If however you asked for a Yokogeri Josokutei they would perform a kick to the side using the ball off foot and toes up.

The most important point being that in the yoko geri the kick comes fom your side (in line with your hips) rather than turning your hips into the direction of the kick prior to using your leg. The latter is a maegeri (front kick) but the former is a side kick.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

I'd rather think of it as a "kick to the side" to simplify things. Perhaps that is something that gets lost in translation.