Front kick (Maegeri)

[sensei8]

You didn't, sensei8 did.

WNM

Actually I was quoting you!

[sensei8]

Again, differing methodologies/terminologies, imho.

Shindokan uses the term and the methodology of Keage and Kekomi as SNAP or THRUST. We don't call Keage "rising" because to us, it's not rising, it's either snapping or thrusting. Shindokan stylists don't consider Yoko Geri, Mae Geri, or any Geri for that fact a stomp/stamp UNLESS the kick calls for it. For example, Fumikomi Geri, Stamping kick, yet, even in that, in Shindokan, it's still either a snap or a thrust.

Yes, Age is rising, as in Age Uke, rising forearm block, and in this block, Shindokanist's snap the block.

[sensei8]

As far as the two kicks in the beginning of Pinan Yondan; they're front kicks! Why? The position of the supporting foot is forward and this is vital to the front kick. With my supporting foot forward during a side kick, I'll have no power and no balance. If I were to do a side kick instead, then my supporting foot MUST be turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the kicking foot.

Now, this is how Shindokan teaches and does these two kicks in Pinan Yondan, and this is how some of our Bunkai are performed. Can a side kick be done instead of the front kick in Pinan Yondan? Sure, but, the supporting foot has to be as previously described above.

[Bastich]

Wow, I didnt realise there was so much to understand about a front kick.

I have found this thread both interesting and informative. Thank you all.

[rogue2257]

As far as the two kicks in the beginning of Pinan Yondan; they're front kicks! Why? The position of the supporting foot is forward and this is vital to the front kick. With my supporting foot forward during a side kick, I'll have no power and no balance. If I were to do a side kick instead, then my supporting foot MUST be turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the kicking foot.

Now, this is how Shindokan teaches and does these two kicks in Pinan Yondan, and this is how some of our Bunkai are performed. Can a side kick be done instead of the front kick in Pinan Yondan? Sure, but, the supporting foot has to be as previously described above.

In Shotokan, that is exactly how we perform the action there. We both do "yoko geri" but our yoko geri is different than yours. In all our kata, anywhere it is designated that a side kick be done, it is always the stomping side kick rather than any other type of kick.

Our kicks are exactly as you described, with the bottom foot pivoted 180 degrees away from the kick.

Different methodologies, same effect, as far as I'm concerned.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hello,

Keage does not mean snap, but I think it has become synonymous with a snapping side kick, just as Kekomi has come to stand for thrust side kick - particularly in Shotokan

I had always seen keage as an upwards kick (snapping as well if you like) making contact with the top outside edge of the foot - when done to the side. I agree a sharp kick rather than a push, but the key fact is that it is delivered into the target pushing up (like an uppercut). One application might be to the underside of the chin or arm for example.

I am not a Shotoka, but as I understand it in Heian Yondan the yoko-geris are keages rather than kekomis - as demonstrated here at 0:35 by Kanazawa sensei.

Also note the foot of his supporting leg remains more or less forward, certainly doesn't appear to point away or at least not to 180 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AambQc8F0ZU

Wow, I didnt realise there was so much to understand about a front kick.

I have found this thread both interesting and informative. Thank you all.

Glad you're enjoying it, actually there is much to learn in terms of different ways to do a front kick, and as you will have read, groups classify the terminology in a variety of ways.

Ultimately though, as long as you are doing any kick appropriately - and more importantly doing what your instructor is teaching - then this is the nub of things.

Whether it is right or not is another matter.

WNM

[rogue2257]

I agree wholeheartedly. School style is always the most important thing. Awareness and understand of what other styles and schools practice is hardly a bad thing, but doing what your instructor teaches you should always come first.

And on the way that Kanazawa performs the kata.. What is more important than the exact positioning of the foot is consistency. He practices it without a full 180 turn, where when I practice that exact same kata my foot turns more. If I do it one way on one side, it has to be the same way on the other side. It doesn't REALLY matter which way I do the kick, foot positioning, placement of the knee, and the actual execution of the kick (stomping with the heel of the foot or striking with the ball).

Different people can't do kicks the same way. I'm a tall guy with long legs, so I'm comfortable with doing the stomping side kick, but for someone with less flexibility, maybe they aren't physically capable of doing the stomping kick well, so they do the ball of the foot style side kick. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, and in fact, the recently late grandmaster of my organization did ALL his kicks very low as front kicks.

In any case, for proper form, no matter how the kick is actually executed, consistency in how it is done is most important. Of course, the same applies for any technique. Having done a little bit of judging myself, it is very apparent when karateka have no consistency with their techniques.

[Wa-No-Michi]

As far as the two kicks in the beginning of Pinan Yondan; they're front kicks! Why? The position of the supporting foot is forward and this is vital to the front kick.

If you are referring to the Wado pinan Yondan I posted they are NOT front kicks - because they are not done to the front.

Nothing to do with foot position, its to do with hips and the relationship to the target.

The "mae" in maegeri litterally means "in front" as oppossed to "Yoko" in yokogeri which means beside.

This is all the more obvious when you consider the embusen of the kata at this stage.

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

I agree wholeheartedly. School style is always the most important thing. Awareness and understand of what other styles and schools practice is hardly a bad thing, but doing what your instructor teaches you should always come first.

And on the way that Kanazawa performs the kata.. What is more important than the exact positioning of the foot is consistency. He practices it without a full 180 turn, where when I practice that exact same kata my foot turns more. If I do it one way on one side, it has to be the same way on the other side. It doesn't REALLY matter which way I do the kick, foot positioning, placement of the knee, and the actual execution of the kick (stomping with the heel of the foot or striking with the ball).

Different people can't do kicks the same way. I'm a tall guy with long legs, so I'm comfortable with doing the stomping side kick, but for someone with less flexibility, maybe they aren't physically capable of doing the stomping kick well, so they do the ball of the foot style side kick. There's nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned, and in fact, the recently late grandmaster of my organization did ALL his kicks very low as front kicks.

In any case, for proper form, no matter how the kick is actually executed, consistency in how it is done is most important. Of course, the same applies for any technique. Having done a little bit of judging myself, it is very apparent when karateka have no consistency with their techniques.

Well on consistency I would agree, as long as you are doing it consistently correct.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

…But what is in the mind of our students that causes them to throw out the frustrating roundhouse side kick. We know that our students know where their side is, or at least we hope that they do.

Teaching the side kick to look like a side kick is one of the hardest basic kicks that we instructors tackle.

Agreed! This one is one of the toughest to get through to the students of our school.