Deploying and retaining a weapon

[bushido_man96]

There are a lot of Martial Artists out there who practice weapons, be they modern or traditional. But, after practicing all the techniques and attacks with them, how many stylists take the time to practice 1) deploying the weapon, and 2) retain the weapon should someone choose to take it?

I think that these are two important parts of weapons training, although they might be overlooked the most.

[rogue2257]

You know, that's an interesting concept that I hadn't considered before. With the knife work we've done we've practiced disarming an attacker wielding a knife, both empty handed and with a knife of our own, but not retention of the weapon should someone else attempt to disarm.

It would definitely be something worth practicing.

[joesteph]

In Vee Arnis JuJitsu, the use of the knife is part of the art. The sensei I took self-defense lessons from did have a guest instructor who was a knife-fighter.

I thought we were going to learn disarms, but when we did the disarm techniques we were told were most common, he was showing us counters to them.

I'm not making judgment about those who wish to be adept with the blade any more than with sticks, but I chose to excuse myself about halfway through when I found that we weren't going to learn disarms that would work.

[tallgeese]

If you're going to carry a weapon, you'd better be able to safely get at it and bring it to play and keep hold of it. It's key.

For handguns, you need to be able to clear space to present as well as control that firearm until YOU are ready to bring it out. This can be VERY system specific depending on your movements. The principles for a guy on the ground using BJJ are different for that same guy up top pounding his way out of a clinch. It takes reps, just like anything else.

Additionally, you need to get a feel for when to break contact or simply make room for presentation vs. closing the gap to control with hands on. This can be a tricky line that depends on circumstances. Again, it requires drilling and "live" reps to get a feel for.

Things are pretty much the same with a knife, concern-wise. However, the movements will be different. But you had still better be able to position yourself under stress to retrieve that weapon from wherever you typically carry it.

I feel that retention to disarming is critical too. If you bring a weapon to a fight, you'd best be able to keep a hold of it. If you take a weapon from an attacker, you should assume he will try to get it back. Again, we see the importance of retention.

It's often under appreciated, but important none the less.

[bushido_man96]

You know, that's an interesting concept that I hadn't considered before. With the knife work we've done we've practiced disarming an attacker wielding a knife, both empty handed and with a knife of our own, but not retention of the weapon should someone else attempt to disarm.

It would definitely be something worth practicing.

I think its something that many practitioners don't think about. Training sessions tend to begin with the knife or gun in-hand, and the general assumption is that it will be that way, when it won't.

Its kind of like people who view the conceal-and-carry laws as the answer to their prayers in protecting themselves. They feel comfortable being liscencsed to carry a gun on their person, and then just leave it at that. That's just the beginning. From there, you have to figure out where you will carry it on your person, and then learn how to deploy it when necessary. Otherwise, you just have a weapon that you think you'll be able to get to when you get cornered, and it just doesn't end up working that way.

One of the popular retorts to the guy asking the Martial Artists the "what would you do if..." questions is the, "well, I'd just shoot you." I'd say, "Oh, yeah? Were is your gun right now?" When they move to deploy their fake gun, crawl all over them, and see how far they would have got. This can be a real eye-opener.

[rogue2257]

You know, that's an interesting concept that I hadn't considered before. With the knife work we've done we've practiced disarming an attacker wielding a knife, both empty handed and with a knife of our own, but not retention of the weapon should someone else attempt to disarm.

It would definitely be something worth practicing.

I think its something that many practitioners don't think about. Training sessions tend to begin with the knife or gun in-hand, and the general assumption is that it will be that way, when it won't.

Its kind of like people who view the conceal-and-carry laws as the answer to their prayers in protecting themselves. They feel comfortable being liscencsed to carry a gun on their person, and then just leave it at that. That's just the beginning. From there, you have to figure out where you will carry it on your person, and then learn how to deploy it when necessary. Otherwise, you just have a weapon that you think you'll be able to get to when you get cornered, and it just doesn't end up working that way.

One of the popular retorts to the guy asking the Martial Artists the "what would you do if..." questions is the, "well, I'd just shoot you." I'd say, "Oh, yeah? Were is your gun right now?" When they move to deploy their fake gun, crawl all over them, and see how far they would have got. This can be a real eye-opener.

Stellar points, as always. Got me thinking. In law enforcement training, there's a "21 feet rule." The idea is.... an attacker with a knife rushes an officer and they have to try to draw and shoot before the attacker stabs them. The rule is that if the attacker is within 21 feet when they begin their rush, the person drawing the firearm will NOT have time to draw and fire before they are struck by their partner.

I've had arguments with a friend of mine, myself arguing in favor of martial arts training, where it's come down to "okay then I'd just shoot you." And I honestly remember being a little dumbfounded and not knowing what to say. It's hard to argue with bullets... or for that matter, a close minded individual.

Martial arts training has always been about much more than simply martial training, with its philosophical and spiritual undertones (in karate at least), but we ought to practice what we preach. If we claim that martial arts training is about self defense as much as it is about self improvement, then we need to train that way.

[bushido_man96]

Stellar points, as always. Got me thinking. In law enforcement training, there's a "21 feet rule." The idea is.... an attacker with a knife rushes an officer and they have to try to draw and shoot before the attacker stabs them. The rule is that if the attacker is within 21 feet when they begin their rush, the person drawing the firearm will NOT have time to draw and fire before they are struck by their partner.

Tallgeese has addressed this before, and it is true if the officer is not allowed to move tactically backwards or at angles to get to cover and draw. So yes, it is true, to a point.

Martial arts training has always been about much more than simply martial training, with its philosophical and spiritual undertones (in karate at least), but we ought to practice what we preach. If we claim that martial arts training is about self defense as much as it is about self improvement, then we need to train that way.

I've learned over time that these concerns have more to do with an individual's outlook on what the arts are for, as opposed to some blanket philosophy that applies to an Art/Arts in general. Although I have been exposed to various philosophies when it comes stylistic ideologies, I tend to take them with a grain of salt, and keep my own opinions and outlooks in mind. My Aikido training is like that. Suffice it to say that some of my opinions on the MAs tend to sound a bit out of place when I voice them in Aikido class.

[rogue2257]

I'm curious, does anyone have any sources for more information on knife retention? I've done plenty of disarms, but never counters.

EDIT: Actually, or for knife combat in general?

[isshinryu5toforever]

We've studied a bit of weapon retention, but only because a lot of people who were training with us were police officers or security personnel.

I think what it is is keeping the right mindset. Often times if we have the question posed to us this way, "If there one person were being choked in a two person situation, what would you do?" As martial artists, we're always trained to give the defensive response. We never think we're the person doing the choking.

Same thing with weapon training. We always train as if we're the victim. We never train as if we're the one who has the weapon first. Once you think of things as if you're "the one doing the choking" it opens up a whole different world of martial arts applications.

[rogue2257]

That is exactly what I've realized. Since I first saw the post, I've talked about it with a few people in my class, instructors included, and they were all a little surprised by the notion. It seems a notion that nobody had really considered one way or the other.

What we have done before, is knife to knife combat, where both opponents are armed, but not ever as though I am the one that is armed and the opponent is trying to take the weapon.

Actually, I did once take a firearm self defense course at one of our symposiums where we discussed defending against an attacker with a handgun. It involved how to get out of the way, how to move to avoid fire, how to disarm someone with a handgun if they were close enough, etc. But we DID also cover what to do if someone else tried the exact same disarm on me, were I holding the gun.

We do very much train as if we're in the position of being a victim, and its not until there is law enforcement-style training involved do we think about what it means to be the one with the weapon. I really had never thought about it before, but its a concept worth some serious further investigation for me.