Self-defense and the law

[JusticeZero]

I've never actually seen this happen if you're proportional and reasonable.

That seems like the part where it tends to come apart though. In the heat of the moment and with a bruised ego, judging exactly what is proportional and reasonable is going to be harder to do. I know that in a couple of the "real fight" stories I dig up, the defender did in fact not think to break off their attack at the "reasonable" point, but that observation never occurred to them. I blame the adrenaline rush and unfamiliarity of the situation.

Also, if you also have a lack of friendly witnesses, justifying your response afterward will be more difficult as well. If the attack is subtle, any witnesses might perceive the counter as an isolated attack.

For instance, you're in a parking lot some distance away from anyone who can help, and an assailant walks up, waves amiably as part of their interview process, then presents a knife close to their body; in doing so, they present their wrist and open themselves up, and they seem to be using the knife at the moment as an intimidation tool rather than slashing with it, and want you to accompany them to a secondary crime scene.

The defender, a throwing stylist, responds by snapping on a wrist grab and throwing the attacker dramatically, retaining the knife.

What the witnesses saw was this: Some guy waved at the defender, who was standing in an angry sort of posture. Then the angry guy suddenly grabbed the friendly one, slammed him into the pavement, pulled out a knife, and threatened them.

...yeah. Have fun untangling that one when the attacker starts crying that you attacked him out of nowhere. The legal system actually isn't all that bad, but there aren't enough judges, so mistakes happen, and even if they don't, it's going to take a good chunk of time to get it sorted out.

Still, do what you need to to keep yourself safe.

[tallgeese]

That's the legal standard in most places. So, that's what we're left with. If a defender steps beyond that, regardless of the reason, then you do have problems. Mitigating factors aside, you'll get arrested. Now, you can argue those in court, but the sure way to not is do your best to hold that standard.

Again, I've never actually seen anyone really get jammed up on this. The adrenaline and unfamiliarity are effects that need to be trained for and prepped into responses. This isn't a physiological response over which a ma-ist has no control, it's a training issue that needs to be addressed.

[JusticeZero]

Oh, I agree.

...but many people don't.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure how often occurences like seen in the movie ConAir actually happen...

[bushido_man96]

You should always assume that the bad guy is going to lie about what happened, and have an awesome lawyer and maybe someone else who can frame you, though. I mean, that guy had the nerve to not fall down when he swung at you! Now someone's gotta pay!

That is true, JusticeZero. It's always the wrong guy or sleazey guy that has the good lawyer.

If they are someone who is already known to be a regular patron to the local detention facilities, then it is likely that most of the local law enforcement are aware of this, as well. And law enforcement investigators do have ways of seeing through the lies.

[Patrick]

Having a good lawyer is the right idea. "Well, I'm the nice guy, so I decided I would hire a bad lawyer and that's why I lost..." doesn't fit. You should always get the best lawyer you can; and people shouldn't be vilified for hiring competent council.

[bushido_man96]

I have been wondering about this for some time, and have asked a couple of people, but never really got the same answers from them. Does anyone know where I could learn about this, either a section in a law book or somewhere online? Specifically:

-if I am in a fight, and defending myself or another, what criminal charges can be brought against me, i.e. assault or some such?

-the person I am defending myself from, can he sue me or file other civil actions against me? Could I sue him?

I think this is important for all martial artists to know, so if anyone can help me with this, that would be helping everyone out. Thanks.

The best way to figure this out would be for you to get a hold of copies of your local city ordinances, county and state statutes, and go over and through them with a fine-toothed comb. Then, once you are clearly confused by the layout of the legal mumbo-jumbo, you should ask these questions of the local law enforcement agencies, and even a judge or two. Then, ask a lawyer as well. Since every local is different, you really have to dig it up on a local level.

That said, "reasonable" is a term you will hear a lot of from these various agencies, so its important to really figure out what that means, and how you would articulate your actions as "reasonable."