Tang Soo Do Master titles

[KyoSa Twigs]

SaBomNim is a Master Instructor, bushido. KwanJangNim refers to Master Hwang Kee, the 'founder' of Tang Soo Do, and does mean GrandMaster.

[bushido_man96]

I've heard Kwanjangnim in reference to just grand masters in general; not soley Hwang Kee.

[joesteph]

I'd always heard Sabumnim as just an instructor title, and I was familiar with Kwanjangnim, as well. I think Kwangjangnim also gets referred to as "Grandmaster," does it not?

I don't know if someone who is a Sa Bom Nim has to go through the assistant instructor and certified instructor testings, but often the chief instructor of a do jang is a Sa Bom Nim.

Kwan Jang Nim is reserved for the Grandmaster. Examples would be Grandmaster Hwang Kee and his successor, Grandmaster H.C. Hwang, for the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.

For the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association, the Kwan Jang Nim/Grandmaster is Charles Ferraro. Mi Guk, which can be translated as "beautiful country," is also used to refer to the United States.

[KyoSa Twigs]

I thought that the other title for GrandMaster, ChoongJaeNim, was for other GrandMasters, such as Master C.S. Kim, (GrandMaster of the ITF) and that KwanJangNim was reserved for GrandMaster Hwang Kee.

And I'm pretty sure that you have to be an Instructor before you can test for Master Instructor (SaBomNim).

[joesteph]

I thought . . . that KwanJangNim was reserved for GrandMaster Hwang Kee.

Kwan Jang Nim is the title given to GM Hwang Kee's son and successor, H.C. Hwang. If you go to:

http://www.soobahkdo.com/fed-web/main-page.htm

you'll see him as Black Belt magazine's 2004 Man of the Year, and at the bottom of the page, you'll see his name preceded by Kwan Jang Nim. It's a link to his Vison Tour. One of his few present students (his time reflects a full plate and he appears to be teaching only those who have a history with him) is my teacher's own teacher, who always refers to him by this title.

As for Kwan Jang Nim Charles Ferraro, you can find him at:

http://www.kwanjangnim.com

I can't "hot link" to the page I want without violating the KF guidelines, so if you go to:

http://www.tangsoodoworld.com

and select Reference from the top menu, the web page you're referred to will have at the bottom "Questions and Answers." One of the two selections is called "Titles in Tang Soo Do." It's interesting that it refers to Kwan Jang Nim Andy Ah Po and the title Kwan Jang Nim, in that Po believes that only the founder of a system should be called this.

Perhaps you've heard of Po's interpretation, Twigs, and that's why you think of Kwan Jang Nim and only GM Hwang Kee as the title holder.

[tenshinka]

Sa does mean fourth. In Soo Bahk Do, related to Tang Soo Do, anyone holding a fourth dan or higher is referred to as Sa Bom Nim, even if the person has reached fifth or higher levels. It doesn't mean teacher, but it confers Master status and has an additional red strip within the midnight blue belt that lower dan members wear.

A dan member with Kyo Sa Nim as the title is a certified teacher, but usually less than fourth dan. If the person has reached fourth (Sa) dan, but is under 30 years of age, it's still Kyo Sa Nim. My teacher is 26, is fourth dan, is certified as a teacher (and so Kyo Sa Nim), but has to wait until the accepted age for Sa Bom Nim. She'll be going for O dan in two years, and should she make it (knowing her, she will), she'll still be under 30 and will have to wait to be adressed as Sa Bom Nim.

A certified assistant instructor is called Jo Kyo Nim.

Tenshinka, doesn't FWIW stand for "For what it's worth"?

OK folks...You all are missing some crucial aspects to this puzzle. Like english, the Korean language is filled with homonyms.

SA does mean "fourth" in Sino-Korean counting (四) the hanja is the same for net which means "four". SA ALSO means teacher/master, and the hanja is different (師), for that matter SA can also mean scholar, again the character changes (士). The list goes on, and on.

The fact that the title Sa Bom Nim is attached to the 4th dan, has only coincidental significance with the fact that SA is synonymous in english with both fourth and teacher. In looking at the characters for Sa Bom (師傅) it is totally apparent that the translation is "Teacher-Father", Nim being an honorific to the title.

The significance of the titles you reference (Jo Kyo, Kyo Sa, Sa Bom) is only in relation to your style SBDMDK, and some variants there of (TSD). In many KMA's the title has nothing to do with age, and strictly is used in reference to a persons rank. For instance:

1st Dan - Jo Kyo Nim

2nd Dan - Kyo Sa Nim

3rd Dan - Pu Sa Bom nim

4th Dan - Sa Bom Nim

5th Dan-7th Dan - Kwan Jang Nim

8th-9th Dan - Chong Kwan Jang Nim/Choong Jae Nim etc.

Very few groups in the KMA world attach a title with an age. You either ARE or ARE NOT deserving of a rank/title/position IMHO.

And yes, FWIW does mean "For What Its Worth".

While I'm at it, Kwan Jang does NOT mean "Master" or "Grand Master" (though it is usually used to refer to folks holding those ranks). It actually means "School Director". Kwan of course means school, institute, etc (館) and Jang means director/owner. In SBDMDK the current head of the Moo Duk Kwan is by default, the Kwan Jang (in this case, HC Hwang), in the Mi Guk Kwan its Charles Ferraro, in the Moo Do Kwan its Andy Ahpo, etc. etc. etc.

In other arts, Kwan Jang simply refers to a Master rank, and in some cases anyone instructor with a school. The title is not specific to martial arts, and in Korea is often used in reference to owners of hakwon (cram schools, alternate title being Won Jang) as well as owners of other types of business or institutions.

[joesteph]

SA does mean "fourth" in Sino-Korean counting (四) the hanja is the same for net which means "four". SA ALSO means teacher/master, and the hanja is different (師), for that matter SA can also mean scholar, again the character changes (士). The list goes on, and on.

The fact that the title Sa Bom Nim is attached to the 4th dan, has only coincidental significance with the fact that SA is synonymous in english with both fourth and teacher. In looking at the characters for Sa Bom (師傅) it is totally apparent that the translation is "Teacher-Father", Nim being an honorific to the title.

Thanks, Josh. Your post was very informative. I quoted the part I thought was most interesting to me. I understand that, while Nim is "honorific to the title," it's not that we'd use Nim when speaking with the person, so "Yes, Sir" or "Yes, Ma'am" wouldn't be "Yes, Nim."

[tenshinka]

Thanks, Josh. Your post was very informative. I quoted the part I thought was most interesting to me. I understand that, while Nim is "honorific to the title," it's not that we'd use Nim when speaking with the person, so "Yes, Sir" or "Yes, Ma'am" wouldn't be "Yes, Nim."

Sorry for the late reply, Joesteph.

Actually you DO use nim when you are referring to a person of higer rank/position than you. For instance I might approach my instructor as "Kwan Jang Nim", where as I would not refer to myself as 'Sa Bom Nim' but rather simply, as 'Sa Bom'. An example would be signing a letter, where this instance would perhaps appear as:

Sincerely,

--John Doe, Sa Bom

Nim on its own accord has no meaning, and is not to be used singularly. It only has meaning when attached to a title. You might equate it to approaching your instructor as "Honorable Teacher," versus "Yo, teach!".

Hope that helps

[sensei8]

So, Nim is a similar honorific as to what the Japanese use?

For example, San or Sama....

San is a title of respect similar to "Mr.", "Miss", "Mrs.", or "Ms."

AND...

Sama is a significantly more respectful version of san.

Although, neither, to my knowledge, is used in the martial arts. In the martial arts we use Sensei or Senpai, as well as other Shogo titles, in that, these titles are spoken, following the persons name.

[tenshinka]

So, Nim is a similar honorific as to what the Japanese use?

For example, San or Sama....

San is a title of respect similar to "Mr.", "Miss", "Mrs.", or "Ms."

AND...

Sama is a significantly more respectful version of san.

Although, neither, to my knowledge, is used in the martial arts. In the martial arts we use Sensei or Senpai, as well as other Shogo titles, in that, these titles are spoken, following the persons name.

Nim could be very closely equated to the use of San. The difference being that NIM is an honorific to all titles, not simply to those related to martial arts.