Martial Arts vs Fighting

[Ti]

Been watching fight quest and some styles out there have me wondering this question.

Where do you draw the line of what is considered a martial art vs just plain fighting?

Is there a distinction?

[bushido_man96]

Fighting is when the physical training aspects of the Martial Arts are put to use. This could be when you reach the physical aspect of self-defense, or a combative sporting event.

I think that all too often, Martial Artists especially like to seperate "fighting" and "Martial Arts" as much as possible, when in fact, Martial Arts exist because fighitng exists. I think that most MAists like to believe that the MAs transcend what fighting is, when in fact, the MAs are really in my mind speicialized fighting. You can look at the MAs any way you want to, but the simple fact of the matter is that the MAs came into being so that mankind could learn to fight and protect themselves better.

[Ti]

Fighting is when the physical training aspects of the Martial Arts are put to use. This could be when you reach the physical aspect of self-defense, or a combative sporting event.

I think that all too often, Martial Artists especially like to seperate "fighting" and "Martial Arts" as much as possible, when in fact, Martial Arts exist because fighitng exists. I think that most MAists like to believe that the MAs transcend what fighting is, when in fact, the MAs are really in my mind speicialized fighting. You can look at the MAs any way you want to, but the simple fact of the matter is that the MAs came into being so that mankind could learn to fight and protect themselves better.

So are you saying they are both really the same?

[bushido_man96]

Yeah, that's basically what I am saying. At the core, they are the same.

Sure, there are lots of people that will say that the Martial Arts are about more than just fighting, but at the end of the day, you can ask those same people if they would have started taking the classes if all that was taught was philosophy without technique, and I would be willing to bet their answer would have been no.

[tallgeese]

I agree, they are the same. MA's might be more technically precise and have systematized training behind them but it's still is, or should be, fighting.

Your average gang tough probably doesn't have lots of drills and reps behind him, but he's been raised, combatively speaking, in a world that is very harsh in it's lessons and very well suited to developing a mental state that is ideal for harming another living being. This shouldn't be discounted, particularly the way some ma-ist train these days.

They are pretty much different words for the same thing.

[tonydee]

Martial arts provide some guiding principles and experiences to enable people to fight more effectively, so rather than flailing around at random they have some higher perspective in their approach to a conflict. This includes things like psychological preparedness, better awareness of distances, timing, threat assessment, defensive and offensive options and merits. They have some fundamental movements and an understanding of their applicability and effect. As people get better at it, they should find they don't panic or freeze, nor lash out with blind anger or hatred in conflict situations, so they have more control over the engagement and outcomes both in terms of their own safety and the damage done to assailants. With this comes choice: just how gentle or forceful you want to be in a particular situation, whether to injure or restrain....

Martial arts exists to supplement any actual prior fighting experience with simulated experience, drilled techniques, a weight of additional contemplation put in to prepare psychologically and strategically, and physical conditioning. Whether the sum total worth of all this is more or less than someone else's actual fighting experience, or whatever physical activities or contemplation they've done that proves relevant, can only be determined on a case by case, situation by situation basis, but it's just common sense that it's likely to help at least a bit. Still, the gaps in natural athleticism, physical strength, speed etc. between people can be very large, so for martial arts or fighting experience to span them and affect the physical outcome of a conflict is not guaranteed.

A fighter could achieve the level of control over a conflict that a martial artist trains for. They could have the same options, even the mindset that a particular martial artist would adopt. Martial arts is just a systemised way to (dramatically) increase the difficulty of scenarios you're able to control or at least "perform" to your ability in.

The extra experiences and insights a MAist seeks should "help" them in a fight, but possibly in vastly different directions for different people - e.g. further determination not to lose vs finding peace with the possibility of losing. The former might help minimise actual injury, the latter minimise psychological trauma - though it could also "free" the MAist to be relaxed enough to perform better: hit harder, dodge more smoothly, avoid telegraphing, and ultimately be less injured.

Anyway, there's nothing to say that someone who's not a martial artist won't end up contemplating the same issues, or having experiences that provide as good or better insights, forge steelier determination, and they may be as or even more psychologically prepared for conflict.

I have been accused by some martial artists of being too focused on fighting. I reject that... to be practical is the guiding light for all martial arts, and anything that turns it back on that becomes a form of dancing, though worse for misleading students that it might be more. Some arts claim to have transcended fighting - and perhaps their founders did - but that is an individual experience, and new students can not be taken directly there without going through the hard yards and realities themselves.

I vaguely remember some (Greek?) myth of a battle field where the warriors fought to the death each day, to be reborn overnight. It is interesting to ask: if that were available, should martial artists want to partake (though perhaps not for all eternity)? I'd say yes - provided the experience didn't itself produce some psychological "scarring" (for self or others).

Cheers,

Tony

[JusticeZero]

I vaguely remember some (Greek?) myth of a battle field where the warriors fought to the death each day, to be reborn overnight.

Valhalla - Viking heaven to be earned by a death in battle. Those who died outside of battle were consigned to the frosty (and, iirc, generally boring) wastes of Hel instead.

[BenchModel]

I think both martial arts and fighting have changed dramatically over the years. For example, some martial arts have been completely modified to the point that their technique is no longer used in fighting, like Wushu or Capoeira. Wushu is a performance oriented sport like gymnastics and Capoeira is a form of dance.

But I think that when fighting becomes a martial art, it either undergoes the following:-

- techniques change to become more artistic or aesthetic

- the fighter has a lifestyle to go with the training

- the fighter has philosophical beliefs towards the strategy/tactics

- the fighter has spiritual beliefs with the way the fight is fought or ended

There could be other reasons why fighting becomes a martial art, but these are the ones off the top of my head.

On an off topic, I also believe "fighters" are missing out on alot in life, whereas martial artists have a more fulfilling life. Kinda like when I see MMA fighters vs traditional martial artists. But that's another topic of discussion.

[JusticeZero]

some martial arts have been completely modified to the point that their technique is no longer used in fighting... Capoeira is a form of dance.

*cough*

...sorry, but you're talking bad about the stuff that I teach, so I need to go off a bit here.

A large portion of the sub-Saharan combat styles have a similar structure to Capoeira - the 'dance' like sparring structure is as standard as the use of kata and forms to catalog techniques in the arts native to sections of and near east Asia. Or for that matter, as standard as putting martial arts into sports contexts is in the West.

Also:

I think that when fighting becomes a martial art..

- the fighter has a lifestyle to go with the training

- the fighter has philosophical beliefs towards the strategy/tactics

- the fighter has spiritual beliefs with the way the fight is fought or ended

..The few of those conditions we fulfill actually puts the Capoeira i've experienced as MORE reality based, as according to thoughts of well-known 'real combat' gurus.

Lifestyle.. not particularly..

philosophical beliefs toward strategy/tactics - expect to be ambushed or stabbed in the back at any moment, lie to get away from a threat, fight dirty, assume that you are outgunned and going to be blamed for everything, be manipulative, and run away?.. which is also as close as i've seen to the spiritual beliefs about combat in general?

The aesthetic element I can't speak to, as it has thus far universally been my experience that EFFICIENT and EFFECTIVE movement is also PRETTY movement; show me an ugly movement and I will show you movement that attempts to violate numerous biomechanical and structural principles and leaks force like a colander. There might be some exceptions somewhere, but i can't say that i've seen them.

[BenchModel]

some martial arts have been completely modified to the point that their technique is no longer used in fighting... Capoeira is a form of dance.

*cough*

...sorry, but you're talking bad about the stuff that I teach, so I need to go off a bit here.

A large portion of the sub-Saharan combat styles have a similar structure to Capoeira - the 'dance' like sparring structure is as standard as the use of kata and forms to catalog techniques in the arts native to sections of and near east Asia.

Hi JusticeZero, I didn't mean to offend you. I am just speaking from experience. I've done some Wushu in the past and found that the techniques were geared towards artistic performance. I am not saying that it's a bad thing, it's just different to doing Kung Fu.

I've never personally done Capoeira myself, but my brother has. It could be that his teacher was more performance minded. My opinion of Capoeira is mostly coming from my brother's experience.

But thanks for informing me about the art of Capoeira. Perhaps my brother's teacher's view on the art is different.