Nagashizuki - Does it actually work in real situations

[Dobbersky]

All

I as you are aware I have been studying Wado Ryu for some time 4 years and I'm nearly a 4th Kyu Graded student.

Nagashizuki - Does it work in Real situations. I ask this because it seems to have quite a few floors in its structure.

I have been practicing Nagashizuki for about a year and the way I have been taught is

" from Hidari Shizentai Dachi" 'slide' forward with my left foot bringing my left fist up towards my opponents face, striking them and twisting my body around to the left (facing right) then coming back to Shizentai Dachi again. Migi version is the same but with the right hand".

I find that I tending to step out to the left as I "lunge" forward which I have been told is "WRONG" but to me in my Ashihara Karate is perfectly correct as we have 4 basic movements in Ashihara and this is move No1 or No3 in my style. I advised this is a conflict of styles but how do I explain to someone who has only done one style that there is actually more than one concept of this technique.

Your thoughts please, and guidance?

[Toptomcat]

I'm a non-Wado student unfamiliar with Nagashizuki. I simply read what you wrote and examined what little video of it I could find.

What it looks like- and feel free to tell me that I'm completely off base here- is that Nagashizuki is not so much a discrete technique as a demonstration or drill illustrating principles of counterpunching. The particular sequence of slipping a straight punch to the head, responding with a backfist, pivoting away from a straight punch to the body while parrying the shot, and backfisting the head again may or may not work for you, and may or may not be practical- depending on vagaries of foot speed, how naturally certain kinds of defensive footwork and parrying come to you, and the like. The general concept of seeing a shot coming, dodging or deflecting it, and responding with a quick technique while your opponent is open is an excellent one that's well worth internalizing and practising, but you probably ought to be moving on to drills that are more flexible and 'alive' than Nagashizuki.

[joesteph]

I find that I tending to step out to the left as I "lunge" forward which I have been told is "WRONG" but to me in my Ashihara Karate is perfectly correct . . . I advised this is a conflict of styles but how do I explain to someone who has only done one style that there is actually more than one concept of this technique.

When Toptomcat mentioned that he caught a video on this, I found an instruction one on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO9DVA7JQ3M

Toptomcat already analyzed this technique, but your question is "[H]ow do I explain . . . that there is actually more than one concept of this technique?"

You don't, Dobbersky, you just don't. I believe that your instructor, who may or may not have been exposed to Wado Ryu only, knows perfectly well that there's another concept--but it's not the art he teaches.

When I took self-defense JuJitsu, we used the vertical fist and the Muay Thai shin kick. My Soo Bahk Do teacher mentioned she was taking lessons on-and-off with my sensei, and told our class it was a good supplement to what we did in class. I found out that she'd studied the art as Vee Arnis JuJitsu for two years in the past, while studying SBD as her main art. When it comes to Soo Bahk Do, the horizontal fist, not the vertical, and the instep or ball of the foot (letting us know the latter is preferred) instead of the shin is the way of the art.

It may be true that your instructor really knows only one art, and since it's his life, he's firmly entrenched in it. It may be that it appears that he knows only one art (my teacher is twenty-six, and has studied Soo Bahk Do for sixteen years--I'd never have expected another art), but in actuality his knowledge is deeper, but he's wedded to teaching the "correct"/approved way of his art.

Whether or not there's another way is actually immaterial. When I study Jeet Kune Do, I'm to use the vertical fist or, if it feels more natural, the three-quarters is accepted (such as when you do a cross punch). No horizontal fist, though, which is the "correct"/approved way in Soo Bahk Do.

You referred to "a conflict of styles," and I believe you're on target with that interpretation.

[Toptomcat]

I think that's making an unwarranted assumption or two. Your teacher may or may not be firmly, irrevocably committed to the One True, Wado-Tested, Wado-Approved Way of doing things- indeed, it's not unlikely. However, you shouldn't just assume that he is without asking him first. Try asking him if he is comfortable he is with discussing 'why' questions about Nagashizuki as well as 'how' questions- what the technique is intended to express or teach, and how the movements he is attempting to teach you serve those purposes. Don't attempt to correct him with concepts and techniques you learned in Ashihara- but engage him by asking about what the unfamiliar footwork he is attempting to teach you is intended to accomplish. I know that I've encountered similar-looking techniques in different karate substyles that are actually intended to accomplish something entirely different!

Don't set Wado's Nagashizuki against Ashihara's- learn the concepts behind both, and whether the differences between them are illusionary, superficial, moderate, or foundational. Be able to perform both, and know the benefits and drawbacks of each. This allows your learning of two karate styles to mesh constructively rather than destructively, and will teach you something about both of them.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi Dobbersky,

Nagashizuki and the principles contained therein, are very important in the study of Wado-ryu karate. On the surface a simple looking technique; it combines the avoiding of an attackers technique by twisting the body along with the simultaneous acceleration of your counter (within the same twisting motion).

Typically, it is done as an "Irimi" or entering technique designed to be performed either preemptively or simultaneously as you oponent attacks.

The latter has the additional benefit of combining the attackers incoming momentum with that of your own.

Important to remember that you also practice Tobikomizuki prior to learning Nagashizuki. I always bang home to my students the importance of the lean when it comes to do a good Nagashi.

As far as the drill you describe, it is your typical bog standard way to do it in Wado Kihon and therefore learn it, but actually the way you describe is nothing more than an exercise as you can do Nagashizuki in a number of stances/situations. In its "basics" form its probably going to be no more effective than your kihon jun/oi-zuki in application - its the principle behind it that makes it work.

But... your instructor is right imo, as you should NOT step out to the side (as much as your previous training makes you want to).

Stepping to the side is good Taisabaki (and not to be ignored) but Nagashi is more twisting to avoid, as opposed to stepping to avoid.

I have been told it comes from Wado's Kenjutsu origins in that I suppose it is quicker to twist to avoid a technique than it it is to step out of its way.

Hope that helps.

WNM

[Dobbersky]

Fellow Karateka and Sempai and Sensei

I am honoured and grateful for you assistance and guidance, it does get frustrating at times when you get the technique "right" then you instinctively shift back to the way you're not supposed to be doing it.

The Kata etc is not an issue, I get foot positions, movements etc correct although in Ashihara the speed between the various combinations is a bit quicker, I am working on slowing it down. Its just various techniques that are "conflicting"

If I name them it may help, sometimes letting off steam is a good thing, as I was starting to think whether is was time to decide between the 2 arts and I don't really want to do that.

Fighting stance is different - Ashihara's stance is more like a boxer's stance.

Back Kick - Ashihara's back kick is more like a rear facing side kick (looking over your shoulder)

Nagashizuki - I been practicing this technique in my sleep too.

A few Ippon Gumite Techniques don't have realistic actions.

Punching - Ashihara's punching is like a Boxer/Muay Thai fighter, I consider the Hikitae etc as grappling (push/pull) as used in Judo rather than real strikes.

Round kick - Ashihara's Kick comes from the side like a Muay Thai Kick but I do like the Wado Round Kick. Also I prefer to kick with the shin not the top of the foot.

I also prefer FULL CONTACT Kyokushin based Kumite not the WKA rules sparring.

I feel better getting that off my chest lol

[bushido_man96]

I think it is good that you have identified some of the variances in the two arts that you are studying right now. I find differences in Aikdio and Hapkido as well, and find that there are things I like from one, and not the other.

What is important is to take mental notes of what you like and dislike, and when you work on your own, or with partners outside of the traditional class setting, you then take the time to focus on what you like. You can also take this time to work more with the concepts and techniques that you don't like from each style, and use them with some neutral training partners. You may find that will like them, after spending a bit more time getting aclimated to them. It might just take the right scenario to make it pop in there.

[Wado-AJ]

Hi Dobbersky,

That video from YouTube is ok, but that is not a good example that you are looking for. The basic movement is moving forward positioning the front foot.

As for nagashizuki the only thing outside your sensei that I can say is that I think you should not consider it the kata that strict. Off course, in the kata move straight forward, put your foot down on a diagonal line and let the body follow. As you say moving diagonal - tending to step out to the left - is wrong, it is wrong for the kata, but practically you can position the front foot wherever you like.

The dynamic of the "landing foot" of nagashi zuki is the same as the landing foot of the 2nd move of torimi in kihon kumite ipponme.

To me, it is a principle of bodymovement rather then a strict punch that needs to follow the kata.

edit: As we use mats, lines of the puzzle stucture are there. I always tell my students that the ball of the foot should stay on the same line when moving forward even after the taisabaki. So the front foot moves forward in a straight line and the ball of the foot remains on this line, the heel and body moves off.

[Wa-No-Michi]

... in application - its the principle behind it that makes it work

To me, it is a principle of bodymovement rather then a strict punch that needs to follow the kata.

Hehe...Great minds and all that

Hope you are well fella.

WNM

[tallgeese]

As to the effective question posed initially, I think there are good tools in there that have good application values.

However, as is so often my beef with trad ma's, the drill used to convey them is less than ideal for mimicking conditions one is likely to face. Large or intricate stances will make any sort of defensive movement difficult. Granted, I'm working solely off of the linked video.

Also, the timing of the two punches is less than fluid, and therefore, less than optimal in teaching one to apply in the street. Notice, I didn't say bad, just less than optimal.

So, to the original question, great tools. In my opinion, and that's all it is, there are more effective ways to drill them for real world prep.