Strikes or thrusts?

[algernon]

Not all strikes must start decelerating upon impact: one counter-example is a ridge hand strike... I deliver it by extending the arm about 10cms beside the target then whipping sideways, but there's enough muscles contracting - pectorals, biceps - to tug it in to the target while still gathering speed and power. It all peters out pretty quick, but it's happening inside the target's original space. It's a counter-intuitively strong technique actually (as is front kick): practice it only in the air and you'd never guess how much shock and power it can deliver into a punching bag....

Yes, good point. The same is true with an inward lateral or upward vertical forearm strike. I must admit that, as we were discussing thrusts (which typically entail a linear extension), I limited my focus to linear strikes. Thank you for the counterpoint.

That's more considerate of the opponent's safety - e.g. self-defense against strangle: strike just enough to distract/shock, then thrust chin up/back to push them away. May also allow that first weaker strike to make contact faster and with less telegraphing, or despite restricted shoulder movement. Sad to compromise the beauty of a full-power full-range thrust though .

It is not for the attacker's safety that I perform a palm heel as described, but rather to gain distance, impede an advance, and disrupt posture. The key to this lies in executing the "strike" and "thrust" contiguously, without interruption. This utilizes a greater portion of my potential power, particularly when used during an attacker's incoming strike, or while counter pulling against their arm.

My purpose in describing a chronological separation between a strike and its thrust (which I managed to scarcely touch at all) was to describe stages in which force is transferred in a thrusting strike. These should not be thought of as separate and deliberate actions, but rather as observed distinguishable phases of the technique.

For students showing difficulty in delivering thrusting kicks, I have the student place their foot on a kicking shield or heavy bag, assuming the posture of a kick that is about half extended. I then have the student push against the bag with the remainder of the kick. After a few repetitions, the student is to execute a full kick, and then push against the bag. Finally, the student may resume practicing the full kick, with instructions to concentrate on penetration.

I would not use this as a regular drill, as I fear that it may create a habitual separation of the aforementioned phases of the technique, but provided as a brief lesson, it has helped some students who struggled with thrusting kicks.

[joesteph]

For a "strike" . . . [t]he attack will focus the power into a small area over a very short amount of time. The time of contact with the strike will be shorter, with recoil starting as soon as impact is made. . . .

If I use a round kick to make short, hard impact that retracts as quickly as it hits can be a strike as well.

I understand that some who favor the roundhouse like to use the same leg to give double or triple strikes. It might be hit middle then high, hit low then middle then high--a chain of kicks that don't intend to move the opponent but to strike, strike, strike. I believe it's really a sparring move, but if it's contact sparring, it's got to have some effect.

[sensei8]

Even though, for the most part, we're all on the same page, imho. Again, our differing methodologies is what makes 'our style' exactly that...our style!

Afterall, DWx asked this...

If you had to explain to a student why a thrusting attack is a thrust and why a strike is a strike, what general definitions would you give?

Therefore,

If I describe a "Strike" as a snap, my students/Shindokan practitoners UNDERSTAND my meaning because that's how a strike is to us Shindokanists...it snaps...like a towel or like a whip!

If I describe a "Thrust" as something that penetrates, again, my students/Shindokan practitioners UNDERSTAND my meaning because that's how a thrust is to us Shindokanists...it penetrates, and by this, it travels way beyond the point of contact!

Every waza in Shindokan at its core is taught to 'penetrate' beyond the point of contact. Every kick, for example, follows the methodology of Up, Out, Back, and Down, but, in a thrust kick, the 'Back' is ever so slightly paused as the hips finish the kick. Whereas, in a snap kick, the hips and and legs basically finish at the same time in the 'Back' portion of any snap kick in Shindokan.

[Montana]

A "strike" kick, as in a punch, hits the opponent, penetrates, then withdraws just as fast as it went out. A thrust hits the opponent and then keeps going...basically more like a push.

[joesteph]

A "strike" kick, as in a punch, hits the opponent, penetrates, then withdraws just as fast as it went out.

I think that roundhouses, especially from the lead leg, lend themselves more easily to being the strike kick that Montana refers to. I've watched the assistant instructor practicing a lead leg roundhouse to hit low-medium-high and then bring the leg down to the floor, as in strike-strike-strike then down.

It's funny, but each kick made his supporting foot/leg move him up a few inches.

[DWx]

Great replies so far guys, definitely some stuff to think about.

One of the definitions that someone suggested and we were toying with in this class was that strikes accelerate indefinately whereas thrusts reach a velocity and then don't accelerate (?).

I think personally I like the idea that a thrust continues into the target and tries to displace the target that the strike impacts and then begins the recoil. At least this is what I tend to think about when either striking or thrusting.

Just thinking about the techniques that I would call a thrust, all of them (that I can think of) are linear so tonydee's and bushido_man96's idea of thrusts as linear, strikes as arcing would seem to fit what I'd call each.

[sensei8]

It's funny, but each kick made his supporting foot/leg move him up a few inches.

Is this the methodology of your style? If not, possibly, he's not as concerned with his supporting leg/foot moving those few inches. Possibly he's not fully streched and that's effecting him. Possibly he's just working on power, where he'd not be as concerned. Either way, his supporting foot shouldn't move up, back, side, forward a few inches...unless...this is the methodology of the style. Why would it be? Only he/you could answer that.

However, a little move isn't all that bad, but, imho, a few inches is quite alot.

[joesteph]

It's funny, but each kick made his supporting foot/leg move him up a few inches.

Is this the methodology of your style?

Here's a demo of it, Bob, with the demonstrator suggesting that multiples are for tournaments.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2356188_doing-front-leg-roundhouse-kick.html

I can see it in a self-defense situation if it's one shot against the side of your adversary's knee, likely using your lower shin, but it would have to be followed up, so it'd probably be the start of a combo in self-defense.

[sensei8]

It's funny, but each kick made his supporting foot/leg move him up a few inches.

Is this the methodology of your style?

Here's a demo of it, Bob, with the demonstrator suggesting that multiples are for tournaments.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2356188_doing-front-leg-roundhouse-kick.html

I can see it in a self-defense situation if it's one shot against the side of your adversary's knee, likely using your lower shin, but it would have to be followed up, so it'd probably be the start of a combo in self-defense.

I don't see a problem with the way the lead leg roundhouse kick in the video is done. It's just not Shindokan's methodology, but, again, I've no problem with that. I even would say that the kick in the video would reach target sooner than the Shindokan's methodology...possibly.

Thanks for sharing that!

Edited September 25, 2009 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

I think that it tends to be more of a point sparring thing than anything else. I remember in my ATA days, that a popular tactic was to do the repeating round kicks with the front leg like that, advancing with a hop/slide of the base leg on each kick. I never could do it...