Strikes or thrusts?

[DWx]

How do you differentiate between thrusting techniques and striking techniques? If you had to explain to a student why a thrusting attack is a thrust and why a strike is a strike, what general definitions would you give?

My instructor asked us this in class and I don't think anyone could come up with a definitive answer that a beginner student could use to classify a technique. There was a lot of reasons and counter-examples of why we call certain techniques one or the other but nobody really came up with a solid definition. Of course this is all dependant on if or how your style diffentiates between the two but I'd be interested in other people's take on things.

[cathal]

To me a thrust technique, say a thrust kick, not only hits the opponent but has a pushing-back movement to it. The hips make a torque-like movement as well. Kind of like trying to push a car backward with a kick, to get it to roll backward up a hill.

So, then, striking to me is to make contact with full power and seriousness like the thrust but without the pushing sensation or torque of the hips. Depending upon the strike the hips are rising, lowering, vibrating, or rotating in some fashion. Strikes can also have a snap-back portion to them as well, such as the snap kick.

So, yes, my two pennies.

*edit*: Fixed spelling.

[joesteph]

I thought of thrust and strike like Cathal, DWx. We can call all hits a strike, but when we say techniques, to me, there's something about the impact: for the thrust it's strong and pushing; for the strike it's strong and "snapping."

In both impact cases, how does the energy travel?

I think that with the thrust technique, the energy keeps on going, "carrying" the target that's been hit, while with the strike technique, the energy is released within the target.

[JusticeZero]

with one, the power is generated before impact, with the other, the power is applied after impact.

[tonydee]

To me, a strike is any technique that does damage due to impact (so a block can also be a strike).

A thrust is one of many sub-categories of strikes. I'll have a crack at putting my own usage into words... might not be as exact as I'd like, but I can't think of any counter-examples where it would classify something as a thrust or not in a way I'd consider inappropriate...

To be a thrust, the striking tool (foot, fist, elbow) must get its power from the rotation or flex of the torso AND convey that power along a line predominantly radially outwards from there (as seen when looking down the spine), such that at impact the target is quite linearly and directly linked to the rotation or inertia of the torso and hence a good portion of the attacker's overall body weight.

This can be contrasted with movements where the striking tool is prodominantly rotating around its hip, shoulder joint or neck: in these motions the momentary accumulated speed and whip of the striking tool (foot, fist, knee, elbow, head) does the damage, but there is little body weight behind it.

As a test: a technique where you can start from a position in contact with the target, and without any back swing, at least powerfully push through the target driving it backwards, is necessarily a thrusting action.

Using this distinction, thrusts include good linear punching and palm techniques - where the hand is travelling away from its shoulder as it hits the target, and the shoulder itself is moving towards the target. It excludes all swinging techniques: hook punches, inward/outward knife hands, back fists (even if delivered forwards from the elbow, extending them involves too much rotation around the elbow technique, compromising the power and preventing thrust). Turning kick, spinning heel/hook, axe etc. are not thrusting techniques, while a horse-style back or side kick does thrust. Front kicks are thrusts if the foot travels outwards in a fairly straight line from the hips, but not if it swings upwards like a soccer kick.

Some things are close enough in to be almost a thrust, but still involve some elements of swing: forward elbow strikes, head butts. Interesting, an elbow can still be a thrust if delivered directly downwards or sideways - striking with the underside closer to the triceps - as often seen in downward breaks and close-quarters post-block strikes to the head.

Cheers,

Tony

[sensei8]

How do you differentiate between thrusting techniques and striking techniques? If you had to explain to a student why a thrusting attack is a thrust and why a strike is a strike, what general definitions would you give?

*Thrust = Any technique that penetrates!

*Strike = Any technique that snaps!

These are the most basic-to-the-point explanations that I'd offer to a student without exploring/training every aspect of either.

[bushido_man96]

I like Tony's breakdown of the two. I would tend to agree that a thrust is a classification of strike, but when I evaluate the names of some of the techniques that I do, I wonder...

For example, back fist strike, knife hand strike, ridge hand strike. And on the other hand, spear hand thrust, front and side thrust kicks, etc. It would appear that most strikes tend to travel in an arc, and most thursts travel in a straight line.

But, then we have exceptions, like the palm heel strike...

[algernon]

I like Tony's breakdown of the two. I would tend to agree that a thrust is a classification of strike, but when I evaluate the names of some of the techniques that I do, I wonder...

Though thrusting techniques are often delivered in the form of a strike, I would not categorically classify thrusting as a subset of striking; striking connotes impact, but a thrust may occur without.

Whereas a strike begins negative acceleration upon impact with the target, a thrust begins, continues, or resumes positive acceleration after contact. Therefore, a thrust may be an uninterrupted continuation of a strike, such as a thrusting kick or a punch with heavy follow-through penetration, or may be executed independently, as in a push against an opponent with whom contact has previously been made.

But, then we have exceptions, like the palm heel strike...

Such is a case where a thrust may be applied to the strike, by delivering the blow with less extension of the striking arm and applying that remaining available extension after the initial impact has been made (as I myself prefer when delivering a palm heel). Your palm heel example is an apt illustration of the strike taking place up to the initial impact, and the thrust occurring after contact has been made.

[tonydee]

*Thrust = Any technique that penetrates!

*Strike = Any technique that snaps!

"snap" is an even more confusing term for most students . And while I intuitively understand and agree with what you're saying, someone who doesn't already understand would probably think of penetration as the amount of distance the striking tool deforms the target, or perhaps the displaced volume, but some swinging strikes may measure more against those criteria than a thrust. Further, I like to make my thrusts "snap" - a term I associate with explosive delivery of power - a transition from relaxation to sudden contraction, and well-timed and -coordinated chaining of muscular contractions throughout the body. I personally don't think of "snap" meaning limited, compromised or swinging power, though I know some people do....

Though thrusting techniques are often delivered in the form of a strike, I would not categorically classify thrusting as a subset of striking; striking connotes impact, but a thrust may occur without.

Ahh... good point! Pushing techniques do generally need to be thrusts (ties in with the point in my earlier post about a rule-of-thumb test for thrusting being the ability to push).

Whereas a strike begins negative acceleration upon impact with the target, a thrust begins, continues, or resumes positive acceleration after contact. Therefore, a thrust may be an uninterrupted continuation of a strike, such as a thrusting kick or a punch with heavy follow-through penetration, or may be executed independently, as in a push against an opponent with whom contact has previously been made.

Not all strikes must start decelerating upon impact: one counter-example is a ridge hand strike... I deliver it by extending the arm about 10cms beside the target then whipping sideways, but there's enough muscles contracting - pectorals, biceps - to tug it in to the target while still gathering speed and power. It all peters out pretty quick, but it's happening inside the target's original space. It's a counter-intuitively strong technique actually (as is front kick): practice it only in the air and you'd never guess how much shock and power it can deliver into a punching bag....

But, then we have exceptions, like the palm heel strike...

99% of the time, my palm heel strikes are also thrusts. As the thread shows, the terms thrust and strike aren't particularly clear or obvious, so we can't expect general usage of the terms to be 100% precise either, though I think in the early TKD days some effort was made to be precise....

Such is a case where a thrust may be applied to the strike, by delivering the blow with less extension of the striking arm and applying that remaining available extension after the initial impact has been made (as I myself prefer when delivering a palm heel). Your palm heel example is an apt illustration of the strike taking place up to the initial impact, and the thrust occurring after contact has been made.

That's more considerate of the opponent's safety - e.g. self-defense against strangle: strike just enough to distract/shock, then thrust chin up/back to push them away. May also allow that first weaker strike to make contact faster and with less telegraphing, or despite restricted shoulder movement. Sad to compromise the beauty of a full-power full-range thrust though .

Cheers,

Tony

[ShoriKid]

My experience has always been that part of a "thrusting" technique was it's ability, and intention, to physically displace a the target through application of force.

I can through a cross with the intention of it being a "thrust". I will leave the punch incontact with the target longer. I won't recoil the strike as quickly. I want them to control their movement with a thrust, in some way altering their posture. A front kick that rotates the hips forward and thrusts them through the target is a thrust. I can "thrust" with a round kick, giving it dead impact where the kick isn't retracted at the point of impact.

For a "strike" I want penitration of a different sort. The attack will focus the power into a small area over a very short amount of time. The time of contact with the strike will be shorter, with recoil starting as soon as impact is made. If I want the cross to be a "strike" I make a sharp, focused contact that pulls back right away. The power is transfered at the time of contact. I can use a front kick, in a liniar fashion, to deliver a short, sharp kick. It's a "strike" then, not a push. If I use a round kick to make short, hard impact that retracts as quickly as it hits can be a strike as well. Most people don't when they want power because the "thrust" is easier to do.