The chicken or the egg? The kata, or the bunkai?

[bushido_man96]

Kata/bunkai have a reciprocating relationship in many "traditional" styles. The practitioners learn the forms, then learn the applications of the moves in the forms, and build from there.

But my question is, which came first? The bunkai, or the kata? I think it is kind of a "the chicken or the egg" arguement. In looking back, I think it is generally agreed that katas were developed as a way of transferring the techniques of a system to the next generation. Katas have been referred to as "textbooks" or "encyclopedias" of the systems.

With this point of view in mind, it makes me think that applications and the like were probably there first, and took precedence as the core of what was learned. Then, some clever individuals figured out how to represent their movements and methods by placing them into forms, and then proceded to pass them on. As this has taken place, it appears that learning the katas has taken precedence over learning the applications; not that the kata is more important, but it is viewed as what must be learned and mastered first, before the applications can be applied.

Anyways, as misinformed as I might be, that is my take on the subject. I look forward to everyone's thoughts on this.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I think your analysis is correct. If you take a look at the Bubishi (the "Bible" of Karate), it has the acts of violence that can be perpetrated upon a human being, and the ways to stop them and respond. So, I'd say that it makes a lot of sense to figure out what techniques you prefer, what they are in response to, and then how to effectively link them together in a sort of "syllabus" that people can learn from.

These days however, the kata definitely comes first. Because of the way the system works, you can't learn bunkai without learning kata. And for many, it takes decades of analysis before they really understand what certain techniques are. Or at least what they seem to be. This really is a good discussion topic.

[bushido_man96]

These days however, the kata definitely comes first. Because of the way the system works, you can't learn bunkai without learning kata. And for many, it takes decades of analysis before they really understand what certain techniques are. Or at least what they seem to be. This really is a good discussion topic.

With attention to the bold-faced section, is this the way that it should be, though? And are there more benefits to doing it this way, than the other way around? Also, now that it really isn't necessary to worry about the secret dessemination of techniques, do we cling to forms just because it has been done this way for so long?

[ninjanurse]

I generally agree here-bunkai first. Decide what to teach first, then figure out how to teach it-applies not only to kata.

[ps1]

I think application had to come first. It's not likely that a village had a ceremonial dance of some sort that, upon being attacked, they suddenly realized can be used for fighting. That's essentially what it would mean if the patterns came first.

[isshinryu5toforever]

We do tend to cling to forms, exactly the way they're presented, because of tradition. I do think though, that some techniques are preserved in the forms that aren't present in the basics. Now, whether these are the most useful, or have the largest window of opportunity, that's up to debate. However, we've said here on the forums many times that techniques take practice. I'm sure there are techniques that we consider impractical, that some people make work wonderfully and nearly 100% of the time.

As far as whether we should teach the forms first, and then what to do with them, I think it depends on the teacher. Some people do teach the basics, and what the basics are, and then move on to the forms.

Others teach the basics, and the forms, letting students figure some things out for themselves, before telling them some of the other applications for specific techniques. I actually like this way, because it encourages self-study. If I give you everything without you asking, or without you coming to your own conclusion once in a while, why should you try hard to grasp anything on your own?

[tallgeese]

From a developmental standpoint, the actual movements had to ome first-what would eventually become bunkai. These would then be worked into kata.

Remember that kata is a training modality, no more or less. Now if one were to ask if bunkai could be taught first now, then I"d argue yes. Just through the use of a different modality.

[bushido_man96]

...Others teach the basics, and the forms, letting students figure some things out for themselves, before telling them some of the other applications for specific techniques. I actually like this way, because it encourages self-study. If I give you everything without you asking, or without you coming to your own conclusion once in a while, why should you try hard to grasp anything on your own?

This is a good point. Self-exploration is a good way to learn, as long as it is nutured in a structured way. Laying out some basic movement concepts and strategies, and then saying, "ok, now lets defend against the straight punch" and letting them explore their techniques, and see what works well, and what doesn't, can be a great way to learn. Then, you bring everyone back together, see what was explored, and then work options that the instructor perhaps has already lined out. See who is close and who has come up with something else.