taekwon do reality factor

[taezee]

On 2002-07-26 00:12, ZakariRu wrote:

 

horse stance, cat stance, backstance (your guys call it an L stance?) front stance espicially are all directly from shotokan karate.

 

The weight distrobution and feet postiioning is slaughtered!~~!! in 9/10 tkd competitiors.

 

Look at the TKD passai, (or the TSD passai for that matteR) then look at a sh ito or shotokan bassai. I know and train with enough tkd competitors (i live in a town with 1 karate dojo for ever 7 tkd dojangs ranging from olympic sparring nonstop, to ITF and TSD) I feel qualified to state that I know that most of you guys dont do the stances right, or have decent draw hands/elbows for that matter

 

not trying to be disrespectful but i know tsd/WTF guys who come to japanese dojos to learn the kata(or is it poom se?) properly.

 

thats very interesting..if they are learning so much at your dojo then why do they continue training in taekwon do??? and how are they going to learn hyung from a japanese instructor?? and as for the original topic of this thread "reality" as in an actual fight a proper stance has what relavence?? when was the last time you saw a fight where a practioner went into a deep horse stance or foward stance? dont generalize and say you Tkd guys because it realy show your lack of experience or knowledge and im not trying to be disrespectful just stating what i know and what my experience has been..do you realy beleive that having perfect kata or form will make you a much more formidable fighter in the street..that if my cat stance is perfect or my backstance?? id much rather drill in actuall self defense drills..arm locks joint locks..hand strikes..throws..sparring (combat sparring not olympic style) these are what i would be using in a real fight..not really worrying about wether my hand has been drawn back properly or if the weight distribution of my back stance .front or otherwise is correct..and another fact is our forms consist of hand strikes and blocks more then kicks..but all we do is kick high and leave ourselves open..and dont use our hands..and we are very easy to defeat all us "tkd guys"..

 

_________________

 

Javier l Rosario

 

bayshore new york

 

instructor taekwondo/hapkido

 

under master Atef s Himaya

 

grandmaster Moon sung lee

 

"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to ki

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-26 17:32 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-26 22:34 ]

[taezee]

On 2002-07-26 01:00, Taikudo-ka wrote:

 

- "are you implying that taekwondo doesnt do any of these?? "

 

Sigh... No Taezee. In fact, as you state, I don't really know much about TKD. My questions are general questions you can ask of any striking art. I'm trying to suggest some criteria whereby you can decide for yourself whether your school is oriented towards sport or self defense. The specific style is really irrelevant. I'm hoping others could contribute more. This would actually give people something concrete to think about, rather than mindlessly bashing "style X" or "style Y".

your sighing and your rolling your eyes?? you know how many times i do that?/ everytime i come in here and a whole bunch of people who dont even study taekwon telling everyone what my art is about without ever even have taken one class..alot the things you had mentioned in your prior statement is practiced in traditional taekwon do..(not the sport which most of you may have seen) and as i have said in the past and continue to do so now is that olympic style taekwondo is but a small part of taekwondo and is not encompassed or truly represented by it and when i talk of traditional taekwondo im referring to the practice of real fighting not play tag under the guise of "full contact olympic style fighting" which is 50% kicking 50% clinching and hugging and waiting for a referee to pull them apart

 

_________________

 

Javier l Rosario

 

bayshore new york

 

instructor taekwondo/hapkido

 

under master Atef s Himaya

 

grandmaster Moon sung lee

 

"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to ki

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-26 17:25 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-26 22:28 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-26 22:39 ]

[taezee]

On 2002-07-26 01:04, ZakariRu wrote:

 

Of course TKD is aimed towards self defense! they wear cups when they compete~!

i can actually picture you sitting there and thinking "wow how clever i will sound when i post this!!"

 

 

[Taikudo-ka]

- "as in an actual fight a proper stance has what relavence?? "

 

All the relevance. If you don't understand the principles behind the stance, your technique won't work in real life. I'm not saying the form has to be perfect according to Japanese perceptions of symmetry and balance. Real application can look quite different from the kata or kihon. However, the underlying principles need to be applied, or:

 

- you will be unbalanced

 

- your technique will lack power

 

- your footwork will be awkward

 

- you will get swept, or kicked in the balls, or thrown.

 

Again, I will reiterate that this applies to ALL martial arts, not just TKD. I sighed because you took my attempt to be constructive here and treated it like an attack on TKD, which I specifically said it was not... Chill, I'm trying to be on your side here, or at least be a fair arbitrater.

 

Sometimes you're not making it easy for me...

 

Me - "...Does your stance leave you wide open to a groin kick?..."

 

TZ - "...thats what i think you are implying..and if so you are another one who knows nothing about taekwondo..."

 

later "... in an actual fight a proper stance has what relavence??"

 

C'mon, Tae, stay consistent or you'll blow our case. A groin kick is of great relevance in a real fight, but not in the sports ring.

 

 

[ This Message was edited by: Taikudo-ka on 2002-07-27 01:13 ]

[taezee]

yes a groin kick is devestating anyone with balls knows this!! and stance is important and form in attack and defense..however alot of what is practiced in form or kata is just a representation or excercise or even a form of shadow boxing ..real combat is another spectrum and we can only hope that our practiced skills can be incorperated into the actual fight..the only way one can develop fighting style is to fight..all the time..real fighting not prerehearsed not sport real drilling practice..not one two and three step sparring not countless hours perfecting my stances and hyung or kata..but actually getting in there and mixing it up especially with those who are more advanced..and my main point is that no matter what style you study..do you get in there and mix it up and improve..or do you stay on the side looking pretty doing your form and kata and hope it will work for you when you most need it?? ive said this before but the only way one can truly learn to swim is by jumping in the pool and wading through the water..not by standing on the edge of the pool and practicing how it may be>>for you may just drown when you need to use what you have learned..and that is the "reality factor" can i really fight?? or am i just a practioner who can do forms well?? who can tie a black belt perfectly.. in other words you can talk the talk but can you walk the walk?? ive heard many on this site and others say "well martial arts isnt about fighting but self improvment..achieving enlightment..the best martial artist is the one who can avoid or walk away from a fight! please..whats it all for then??yes martial arts does build character..discipline..self control..indomitable spirit ..its great for physical fitness..but its a fighting system we all practice!! to defend oneself and those you care for ..all that other blah blah are for those who question what martial arts are about or were created for..to prevent me from having my ass kicked period above all else..and this staement and you may quote me is truly "the reality factor" in any martial art anyone thinking otherwise .."the nile is a river in eygpt" as in denial!! any form of martial arts practiced should be questioned as will i be able to use this if i have to?? martial arts is not "i should be able to just walk away from any confrintation" such a myth and such a falicy..and i am not one who just started martial arts or just dabbled in it..ive been doing taekwon do for 25 years now and the reason i started was because i got my ass kicked 25 years ago and swore it wouldnt happen again!! it is a way of life for me.but at the same time i wont walk around quoting phrases from some chinese fortune cookie trying to sound like cain from kung fu.. and saying martial arts is not for fighting..you want to bring it..hey bring it..ill sleep better at night knowing i kicked youre teeth in then saying to myself i was the better man a good martial artist for walking away "reality factor" what it boils down to..what the real nitty gritty is..can i fight? is what im practicng going to make me be able to? and if not why am i practicing this??

 

_________________

 

Javier l Rosario

 

bayshore new york

 

instructor taekwondo/hapkido

 

under master Atef s Himaya

 

grandmaster Moon sung lee

 

"whenever youre lazy enough not to train .someone, somewhere is training very hard to ki

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 03:15 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 03:16 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 03:37 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 03:46 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 16:55 ]

 

[ This Message was edited by: taezee on 2002-07-27 22:16 ]

[Tapout]

Taezee I agree 100% with you, you hit it on the bulls eye, I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

http://www.nhbcanada.ca/Photo%20Files/NHBshadow.JPG

 

 

[ZakariRu]

Well im glad you thought it was clever.

 

Alot of the great stand up grappling techniques and breaks from kata (that block isnt really a block, and that punch really isnt a punch, remember i said that) dont work from a **** stance.

 

I dont understand how sparring has anything to do with selfdefense

[ckdstudent]

Does your stance leave you wide open to a groin kick?

Not really.

Care to test it?

Not particularly.

Do you practise close range techniques like elbows and knees?

Yes, lots of them. Head strikes too.

Are you prepared if someone grabs your arm, your kick, or your clothing?

Yes, infighting techniques are something we train a lot.

If they then try to throw you?

Yes.

Are you prepared to do likewise to them?

Takedown maybe, not a throw. More likely just keep hitting them until they fall over.

Do you know the best striking points to damage your opponent?

Vaguely.

Or just the head and the big round dot, and how many points they're worth?

We don't compete, and the one time I did (in an informal in-class TKD class) I discovered that half of my best techniques are illegal and got myself disqualified.

Have you practised striking a suitably padded target full force? Or only ever punched air?

Shield sparring (people holding big padded foam targets and moving around or standing still), focus mitt sparring and when we have the equipment bags as well.

 

 

[TW0EDGE]



 

Hi,

 

I have never taken a Tae Kwan Do class in my life, but I am going to throw in my 2 cents anyway.

 

The question is before us. Is TKD useful in a real fight?

 

Which one of your schools in your association never turned out a black belt that did not truly deserve it

 

? I would bet that every school or club has at least one.

 

If a martial artist of any style wishes to learn how to defend themselves they most likely will do so.

 

Lastly, look at the hyung, poomse , kata whatever you wish to call the forms. If the studio is teaching

 

forms such as Pyung-Ahn or Pinan Bassi or Passi , Jin-do or Chinto, Naihanchi. Then the basic

 

elements and tools of self defense are present. Make sure to practice Dae Ryun or Kumite to develop

 

awareness, timing and control. I suggest you look into the definition of Dae Ryun and Kumite if you are

 

serious about martial virtue then you will find those definitions very enlightening.

 

TW0EDGE

 

0====(==========>

[KickChick]

I believe the basis for questioning TKD's reality factor for self defense is based in part because of all the Olympic attention that has been put on TKD in recent years.

 

Some people believe the style has become more of a sport than a self-defense system.

 

Also due to this "sport" emphasis there seems to be a lack tradional philosophy and ethics being stressed. They reason that, because of the emphasis on sport competition,TKD students are learning how to kick and punch only for the purpose of scoring points at a tournament, leaving them unprepared for the uncertainties of a street altercation.

 

Sparring or as you refer to it TW0EDGE (Dae Ryun) should not be mistaken for actual fighting. In sparring (in class), the overall goal is mutual improvement of the parties involved by exchang of attack and defense with some limitations imposed. In an actual street fight,there are no limitations, except those you impose on yourself.

 

Now as far as sparring in tourneys and competitions ... this is the closest that most martial artists will ever get to a real fight during their training. The conditions of a sparring match are similar to those in a real fight. The adrenaline is pumping, you're nervous, the stakes are high, and you are matched against an opponent who is neither a friend nor a classmate. Any number of techniques could be thrown your way, and making a mistake can lead to a loss.

 

 

 

As in a streetfight, you must size up an opponent whose skills,strengths and weaknesses are unknown to you. You must learn to channel the tension of competition into usable energy against your opponent. This is a particularly valuable trait on the street, for even the most practical techniques are worthless if you freeze up at the moment of truth. For these and many other reasons, competition is one of the best ways to test your self defense skills and discover what does and doesn't work in a real "fight" situation.

 

It goes without saying that good technique is the cornerstone of any martial art. It is what separates martial artists from street thugs and what gives the arts their aesthetic beauty. It is the goal of all martial artists and the reason why it should take years of dedication to reach black belt level.

 

There is no substitute for real fighting, TKD competition comes close. There is a big difference between almost hitting an opponent and actually delivering a blow with full force. While karate tournament fighters are just merely scored upon in their matches, TKD competitors train to absorb real blows in continuous sparring.

 

Also taking into account the other side (ITF) ... the ITF also emphasizes practical, no-nonsense defense oriented techniques although not heavily into the "competitive" nature of the "sport" end of TKD. So then there is the arguement -- because you can spar successfully in tournaments doesn't mean you can defend yourself against a street fighter. Sparring is not self-defense... it is a training with rules.

 

 

 

It is up to the TKD school to emphasize self-defense training to help students adapt to fighting situations.

 

As taezee has posted time and time again ...the TKD fighter is skilled at striking a moving target,taking a punch, and responding in kind.

 

_________________

 

KarateForums Sensei

 

1st dan Tae Kwon Do (ITF)

 

Cardio/Fitness Kickboxing Instr.

 

[ This Message was edited by: KickChick on 2002-07-30 12:22 ]