Aikido and Hapkido - A comparision

[tallgeese]

"Back then" might, and I'd argue based on observation doesn't, equate the state of the art now.

These systems don't stand alone in a vacuum forever. They evolve and move forward, or sometimes in unanticipated directions. While isolated pockets of the "original" form might exsist, by and large the art AS A WHOLE seems to have moved in a different direction and sidelined some of those aspects.

[RichardZ]

"Back then" might, and I'd argue based on observation doesn't, equate the state of the art now.

These systems don't stand alone in a vacuum forever. They evolve and move forward, or sometimes in unanticipated directions. While isolated pockets of the "original" form might exsist, by and large the art AS A WHOLE seems to have moved in a different direction and sidelined some of those aspects.

I wholeheartenly agree.

[tufrthanu]

I once had a high ranking Ji Do Kwan TKD instructor tell me if you get thrown and get up smiling its Aikido, if you get thrown and get up in agony its Hapkido. He may have been Korean arts biased though.

[KarateGeorge]

2. Rolls/breakfalls. Many of the Aikido techniques end in a throw, or a "projection" of the attacker; the attacker is thrown, and rolls back to a standing position many times. However, there are some breakfalls, and there are also pins and locks taught, as well. However, I feel that Combat Hapkido does a lot more takedowns and restraints/holds, which means for the attacker, that there is less rolling, and more breakfalling, and more tapping out.

I'm approaching this from ignorance as I've not studied either Aikido or Hapkido (but am tentatively starting up Aikido classes in a couple of weeks once the holidays are over). But wouldn't the many Aikido throws that end up with the attacker rolling back into a standing position only be the case for someone trained in ukemi? I would assume that doing those same techniques with force to an attacker on the street would land them flat on their backs (or whatever part of the body that throw puts them on).

[tonydee]

...wouldn't the many Aikido throws that end up with the attacker rolling back into a standing position only be the case for someone trained in ukemi? I would assume that doing those same techniques with force to an attacker on the street would land them flat on their backs (or whatever part of the body that throw puts them on).

Yes, there's some truth in that. My experience has been that people who haven't learned a similar art instinctively fight to remain on their feet... which can make things harder for them. Of course, the MAist who's so used to people rolling for them may find their technique doesn't work anyway, but that's another story....

Cheers,

Tony

[KarateGeorge]

Of course, the MAist who's so used to people rolling for them may find their technique doesn't work anyway, but that's another story....

Cheers,

Tony

Heh, very true. You'd have to do the technique with proper force for a resistant opponent rather than a non-compliant opponent, but that's kind of what I thought. If done correctly, they either end up on the ground or with an injured limb from resisting the fall.

[tonydee]

If done correctly, they either end up on the ground or with an injured limb from resisting the fall.

Yes... with many joint locking and throwing techniques applied expertly, the natural instinct to resist just leaves your centre of mass up higher and your body straining away from the fall, which means that when the time comes you simply fall harder and on to less resiliant parts of your body.

Reminds me of an anecdote re the founder of Aikido, albeit a counter-example. Indeed, it's about the only humbling anecdote I've ever heard about him - most of them paint him to be godlike in ability (teleporting out of the path of bullets, fighting top swordsmen unarmed until they gave up in exhaustion, unable to get the blade to him). So: Ueshiba demonstrated a basic technique on a white belt, grabbing his arm and pivoting shoulder-to-shoulder such that the guy's elbow lifted skywards - hand behind his shoulder, then he went to drag the arm downwards, which would normally drop the opponent on their back. Trained aikido (and hapkido) practitioners will know that resistance is useless - at least if their hips are forced forwards and their body weight lifted in the process - and typically do a backward breakfall with their free arm. This whitebelt was somehow standing there facing Ueshiba, who was still holding his wrist. Turned out he was a top ballet dancer, trying out aikido while visiting Japan, and his instinct was to accelerate with the spin that Ueshiba forced him into. He'd completed turning - escaping with the same principal that a roll employs but along a vertical axis instead of horizontal - before Ueshiba had started to tug the arm down.

That this could take Ueshiba by surprise shows just how instinctive resistance is, and that even trained people might stop after doing the necessary minimum to avoid trouble, without considering the possibility of actually doing more. Whether true or not, it's worth keeping in mind as a general pricipal in your training... keep an open mind!

So many things in martial arts are like this. For example, I remember being shocked the first time I saw a shaolin monk block a punch outwards with the back of his upper arm (triceps)... why do that? Tenth of a second later the elbow was facing his opponent and the knife hand had swung forwards to the opponent's neck. So blindingly obvious in hindsight, but I'd delivered how many thousand knife hand strikes and never thought of such a move. Similarly liberating to learning you can turn a block into a subtle grasp: one hapkido and taekwondo master who used to come to train with my hapkido master in Sydney mentioned he loved to use grasping techniques against the local taekwondo fighters, subtly enough that they'd think "that's odd - my balance is bad today, making me too slow to recover or follow up", not realising he was manipulating them. The distinction between blocking with brute force and deflection, blocking inside the focal distances and moving towards or away from an attack to meet it when unfocused, dozens of such important insights accumulate over the years, working their way into the techniques and tactics of an experienced fighter.

Cheers,

Tony