please tell me about karate

[chalkdust]

I would like to know how to think about shotokan, shorin ryu, uechi and goju and also the famous uber awesome kyokushin

I believe I am in a good shotokan dojo but would like to make the most of my training. I am into traditional martial arts: chinese, japanese, african, and maybe even czech (systema!) . I am into the weird stuff, the ground connection, the tan dien, very good conditioning, flexibility, expansion and contraction, kime, meditative berating, reflexes, body awareness, (meditation), iron body conditioning, and of course balance, the balance of a "real" ninja on plum blossom poles! I dont care about sparring outside of the reflexes trained by it. I am intrigued by chi or ki development and working with elements and mental focus "things" that come from eastern philosophies, the chi, earth air water and fire, the animals.

what do u think?

what should i train in my martial arts life?

currently doing capoeira and shotokan, just started chen tai chi... do a little yoga from a sai baba lineage

excited to tie this all together.

[JusticeZero]

Sounds like your interests are all over the place right now. You like both "classical" and extremely modern recent martial arts, you like internal stuff and external stuff, and you like a variety of categorization/classification/structural schema introduced mainly by chinese martial arts - pretty much all of the varying ways that the chinese found to classify and consider things really, even if those methods really weren't, imo, expected to be mixed. There's really not all that much that you *haven't* mentioned there!

For starters, do not expect to tie all of that together. No-one ties all of that together. The successful ones start somewhere, build that up, and then connect -some- other things in as they develop their skills.

I'd suggest doing a good survey of what is available to you, find ONE thing that fits decently well, and devote yourself to it, keeping an eye out at how others do things.

You actually need that path dependency to make solid headway, but you want to keep your eyes open to the thoughts and methods that others are doing so that you can 1:keep it real on your own stuff and make sure that the skills you are learning are good and 2: keep adapting your skills to be able to deal with what other people are doing.

[JusticeZero]

One other thing - "developing your ki" is in no way a substitute for working up a sweat trying to build your skills and physical strength up, probably feeling like you look like an incompetent fool the whole time.

Many of the mystical feats you see really are magic - David Copperfield style hocus. They look really very impressive and awe inspiring, then you look into it and find out that there's a party trick way to do it that just happens to match what you saw exactly.

Others are "mystical" because someone got sick of trying to convince people that it really was a trained skill and not a magical feat of supernatural ability; i've had to fight with this before, when people start arguments with me trying to convince me that my ability to do moderately acrobatic feats are not because of my development of strength, body dynamics, and balance as I claim, but rather because of my tapping of supernatural magic powers. Expect that 'mystical' skills you hear about really are all about putting in the hard work to model good body mechanics.

[chalkdust]

nice

do so called "advanced concepts" make their way into the capoeira disciplines? I see already my maestre talks about moving with the joints and not the muscles which I take to mean to be aware of your body and keep relaxed until the right moment of focus. surely a concept found in asian systems!

it would be interesting if candoble or macumba capoeiristas combines their spirituality, possessions, rituals etc and understanding of elements in the west african or great lakes cosmologies with their capoeira in a way similar to animal and elemental meditations in kung fun and tai chi and perhapse karate if it is out there (i assume it must be) I know I have seen videos that say a capoeirista needs mandinga and to know what st rules him. this is yoruban or palo (kongo) or macumba (fon and ewe?) way of looking at it i think.

[bushido_man96]

Sometimes, philosophies and Martial Arts don't go together. It really depends on the person, and what they are seeking out.

I would say that it is easier to narrow your fields a bit as you get started, so that you can then begin to set more focused and attainable goals. I wouldn't say that you shouldn't seek all that you ask for, but it will take time, and by having a plan and a path for it, will make it easier on you.

One of the best things you can do is research. Check out different sources, and do some reading. Make sure that what you think you are seeking is actually what it is, if that makes any sense.

And welcome to KF.

[JusticeZero]

do so called "advanced concepts" make their way into the capoeira disciplines?

it would be interesting if candoble..combines their spirituality, possessions, rituals etc ..in the west african or great lakes cosmologies with their capoeira [similarly to] animal and elemental meditations in [CMA] and [whatever mystical influence JMA uses]

???

mestre - we're from Brasil, not Mexico. =)

I've done Capoeira for years and years, i've done taiji for a couple years. Some people put a lot of stock in Candomble's influence. Myself, I feel it is essentially a distraction, much in the way that obsessing over five element theory or animals or whatever can become a distraction. It's got some good stuff to learn, but that's early on, and then people say "There must be more, deep mystical secrets.." and distract themself. This stuff isn't that complex. Learn psychology, learn how eyes work, study how people respond under stress, watch people and mirror them. If you want to study Candomble, study Candomble; it will give you a number of insights, but you don't need to overstudy this.

As far as moving with your joints - look, we're moving all the time. Vidro (student of mine) notes, after he's been taught ginga in pretty exacting detail, that it takes very little energy to maintain it; it's this happy little metronome of weight shifts and using the calves as a spring. Our legs in a kick are LIMP. I don't tense up even when I DO hit something in general. It just works better that way; we don't slow ourselves down or tire ourselves out. Use coiling body dynamics, dropping, things like that for power instead of straining with your muscles. Nothing magical there.

Oh, and the concept you mentioned ("moving with the joints and not the muscles which I take to mean to be aware of your body and keep relaxed until the right moment of focus") appears pretty often in boxing too. People who go to a gym in hopes of being the next Holyfield/Tyson/whoever get that lesson pretty early on. Although, 'move with your joints instead of your muscles' is usually 'use your balance and your hips to move yourself instead of straining away with the nearest extremity'.

IIRC, and the Okinawan/Japanese stylists can correct me on this, the Chinese martial arts are the ones to go into extensive detail on mystical/philosophical things like that. JMA tends to use, if anything, a Zen core of philosophy. I rather like Zen; 'Quit overthinking this; relax, clear your mind, and just do it.'

Here's a book you might be looking for. When you're looking at that review, make sure to read and understand the negative reviews too. The guy was guilty of that stuff, imo.

[chalkdust]

Thanks! Sorry for my mis spelling of maestre! This was very helpful and interesting. Much respect and thanks. I will continue to train and learn and I will check that book out. Gotta run now, but I will return!

You are right about the zen. Thats what my teacher is always saying. Just do it, dot think about it, just do it! Everything has to come from the hips and I need to always work on relaxing.

[sensei8]

While being eclectic in the martial arts has it's merits, just remember this old saying...

"Don't over season the sauce!"

Let your core style simmer/mature in you while you simmer/mature in your core style, then, be as eclectic in your martial arts as you want to be. After all, it's yours and yours alone. Maturing doesn't mean, not that it wouldn't hurt, 10 or 20 or 30 years in your core style. No! But, having a solid understanding of the basics first is vital before studying any other martial arts.