What Is The Martial Arts communitys Perception Of MMA????

[RW]

III)

IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other.

UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part.

Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example).

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others.

Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree.

Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch.

Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers.

The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown?

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

[gzk]

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Why do you think the Gracies designed the rules to favour grapplers? Gis were allowed, sure. Royce choked with the gi, but he could also have been choked with it. The cage can help with takedowns, it can also, unlike ropes, be pushed off of to create space to escape the grappler's control. Headbutts, groin strikes, striking the back of the head, kicks, knees and stomps to any part of the body were allowed, which don't favour grapplers any more than strikers, except that perhaps, grappling skill would permit achieving a superior position to deliver them.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Correct. That is a particular exploitation of the rule that favours grapplers. But Diaz can be kneed in the body, or punched in the head. His opponent can disengage, and Diaz will be stood up, However, if Diaz, as a grappler, lands a takedown, and remains standing, as in a high single leg, or a judo type throw, his opponent, the striker, may take advantage of the rule, and cannot be kicked, stomped, etc.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

Yes, it was boring. But Silva won. Leites invited Silva to challenge him at his preferred range and Silva refused and continued fighting at his preferred range, stand-up. If Leites had taken Silva down, and Silva disengaged, he would not be made to get back on the ground. Leites gained nothing by employing those tactics except perhaps forestalling the inevitable and giving himself another chance to initiate a striking exchange. He certainly gained nothing from the judges and at no time did Silva engage him on the ground, so he gained nothing in terms of grappling.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

And you'll lose by decision, unless you happen to land a hard side kick to the knee. You used to be able to win by KO from an up-kick to the face. That is now illegal. It wasn't a winning tactic for Leites against Silva, nor for Belfort against Sakuraba in Pride. Do it more than once in the UFC and you're unlikely to be re-signed.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

They didn't when those moves were legal. Besides, you won't see a "5 minute hug-fest" in the UFC, because the ref will "stand 'em up" if the fighters fail to "keep it workin" for more than about 2 seconds.

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Actually, you can knee the body of a grounded opponent, just not the head. Kicking the kidneys was mainly done by grapplers who pulled guard, when it was legal. You cannot and have never been allowed to eye gouge or fish hook, which are technically both grappling techniques. You cannot pinch, which is also a grappling technique. You cannot grab the shorts or gloves or throw the opponent out of the arena. All grappling techniques. The rule against striking the back of the head is less favourable to grapplers than you might initially think. The primary position in which this is possible is when a grappler takes the back with hooks in or with a body triangle. The opponent, trying to defend the strikes, would leave himself open for a choke; defending the choke would get him knocked out.

And you can't turtle or buttscoot your way to victory. It hasn't, doesn't, and won't happen.

[bushido_man96]

Boxing since it was actually called boxing is only strikes with the fists...

Actually, it also entailed throws and pins at one point, as well.

Inactivity on the ground leads to restarts on the feet- wheres the logic in this? If someone holds long enough a ref will stop them and start them back on their feet? To use what is already so abused, there are no refs in real life Perhaps we should start inactive strikers on the ground when they refused to engage.

I think that this is something that should be considered in the judging and reffing of the matches. Perhaps moving grapplers back to the center of the ring, and starting them in a top/bottom type of setup like what is used in Wrestling. If inactivity continues on both sides, then a standup should be initiated, or something to that effect. What is viewed as "grappling inactivity" should also be looked into, as well.

[MMA_Jim]

III)

IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other.

UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part.

Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example).

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others.

Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree.

Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch.

Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers.

The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown?

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

 

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes.

[RW]

III)

IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other.

UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part.

Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example).

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others.

Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree.

Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch.

Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers.

The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown?

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

 

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes.

I did see it...

there's some limitations for Grapplers as well, but I still feel strikers get the worse part, just so the sport can be on TV.

I really don't think Gracie would love a ruleset in which he can be headbutt (especially with the back of the head!) or hit in the groin when he is pulling his ground game. The headbutt/stomp/groin shot would be possible most of the time when people are in the ground... especially the headbutt.

[bushido_man96]

Whether the Gracies like the rules now or not, I think that the UFC has gotten better for it, and its popularity is a direct result of those changes.

[gzk]

III)

IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other.

UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part.

Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example).

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others.

Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree.

Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch.

Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers.

The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown?

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

 

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes.

I did see it...

there's some limitations for Grapplers as well, but I still feel strikers get the worse part, just so the sport can be on TV.

I really don't think Gracie would love a ruleset in which he can be headbutt (especially with the back of the head!) or hit in the groin when he is pulling his ground game. The headbutt/stomp/groin shot would be possible most of the time when people are in the ground... especially the headbutt.

Then why did the Gracies make those techniques legal in the original UFC ruleset? Why did they fight for several decades in Brazil before the UFC under Vale Tudo rules in which those techniques were also legal?

[bushido_man96]

This is just me speculating, and I could very well be wrong, but my guess is that the early UFCs were the Gracie's way of getting BJJ out into American public view to demonstrate how good it was when used in "full contact, no rules" fighting. When the Gracies arrived in the UFCs, BBJ took off like a rocket in the USA, which is probably what they wanted; to hit the American market. True, they probably don't like the rules changes, but the fact of the matter is that the sport probably wouldn't have had much of a future if they hadn't changed. Even with the rules changes in effect now, I'd be willing to bet that their are better athletes in the game now than were when it first started.

[gzk]

This is just me speculating, and I could very well be wrong, but my guess is that the early UFCs were the Gracie's way of getting BJJ out into American public view to demonstrate how good it was when used in "full contact, no rules" fighting. When the Gracies arrived in the UFCs, BBJ took off like a rocket in the USA, which is probably what they wanted; to hit the American market. True, they probably don't like the rules changes, but the fact of the matter is that the sport probably wouldn't have had much of a future if they hadn't changed. Even with the rules changes in effect now, I'd be willing to bet that their are better athletes in the game now than were when it first started.

I agree with you about the Gracies' motives and I agree that the rule changes have been good for the sport overall. Some of the reffing and judging I don't like, but the rules are fine. However, I don't think, based on the facts, that those rules favour grapplers or that the rule changes are/were at the behest of grapplers, as some seem to believe.

[RW]

III)

IV) MMA is the result of pitting MA's against each other.

UFC began as a brutal bloodsport-wannabe tournament. Boxers, sumo guys, karate, TKD, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, wrestling, representatives of all of these arts and even some less practiced such as savate took part.

Eventually what worked stayed and what didn't got weeded out (sumo guys, for example).

We must also remember that the cage and rules set up for MMA were created by the Gracies to showcase and accommodate their style over others.

Yeah... it's designed to favor grappling so much, it kind of upsets me...

Why do you believe that? I strongly disagree.

Refs who either do not understand grappling or are just nervous about fans growing bored will 'stand 'em up' in the middle of a guard pass or submission setup. This happens routinely. You will never see a fight stopped when both fighters are standing and dancing around each other refusing to engage, with the fight restarted in an under-over clinch.

Judges who do not understand grappling hand victories to "lay n pray" fighters, because they are either directed to do so or cannot tell the difference between a fighter posturing up in his opponent's guard and landing hard punches and the same fighter with his posture broken and being controlled by the bottom fighter. Merely being on top does not mean you are in a dominant position. This type of judging does not favour grapplers.

The techniques that are banned are designed to favour the sport being able to be sanctioned, not to favour grapplers. You could not put on an event in the US with soccer kicks, stomps and headbutts. The original Gracie rules permitted all these things and more. The Gracies ceased involvement with the UFC when the rules became more restrictive. Where did they go? Japan, with longer rounds, legal stomps and soccer kicks. The cage is used to prevent fighters being thrown out of the arena. In a matchup between a striker and a grappler, who do you think would be more susceptible to being thrown?

At first they were designed for that (by the Gracies). Now it just turns out that they're still favored, even though it is no longer on purpose.

Look at that Nick Diaz guy. In a recent fight he was getting pounded so badly by the opponent's kicks and knees to the head. So what does the guy do? lay one knee on the ground. Now "he is grounded" and he cannot be kicked or kneed in the head. So cheeky.

Look at Tales Leites vs Silva. He'd get TOUCHED and he'd drop to the floor and spread his legs. He did this the whole fight. Silva was so frustrated. So many people wished Silva could stomp the guy right between his openly spread legs for making one of the most boring title matches in MMA history.

If you're a puny striker you can pretty much turtle your way to the end of the fight (back on the ground, spread legs, hand to the sides of your face). Yes, the ref will stand you up. Then you can dance around, and drop again.

All those 5 minute hug-fests could end quickly if kneeing to the groin or a headbutt to the face were allowed.

 

Look at the prohibitions... no kicking while the opponent is "grounded" (there is a difference between lying in the floor and putting one knee in the ground on purpose, but the rules do not care!), no kneeing while the opponent is "grounded". No disqualification for turtling your way to victory. No kicking in the kidneys. No strikes to the groin. See a pattern? The limitations on grappling, as far as I know are "no small joint manipulation".

Ok, so maybe you are right, UFC is no longer designed to favor grapplers. Now it just turns out that it strongly does, but not on purpose.

Read my post on page 4- most of the rules are in tact against grappling. The Gracies stopped fighting after you saw a Ken Shamrock use the rules (time limit) to "tie" Royce Gracie in a superfight. They prefer to fight with no rules, no time limit, anything goes.

I did see it...

there's some limitations for Grapplers as well, but I still feel strikers get the worse part, just so the sport can be on TV.

I really don't think Gracie would love a ruleset in which he can be headbutt (especially with the back of the head!) or hit in the groin when he is pulling his ground game. The headbutt/stomp/groin shot would be possible most of the time when people are in the ground... especially the headbutt.

Then why did the Gracies make those techniques legal in the original UFC ruleset? Why did they fight for several decades in Brazil before the UFC under Vale Tudo rules in which those techniques were also legal?

Because he had to. He is an amazing businessman as well as an amazing martial artist, and he knew that if he could prove that he could beat any man, anytime, using any style (hence the lack of rules) he could attract lots of attention towards gracie jiu jitsu.

He was not exactly looking forward to getting a nutshot or headbutt when grappling hehe.