Yudansha only

[mudansha]

I had a two-year stent of Shotokan when I was young, I took a 10 year break, and now I have been back at it for two years again. When I came back my sensei honored my previous rank of 9th kyu (we have 11 Kyu levels). For the last two years I have dedicated 2 hours a night, 4 days a week to karate. Many of our students come half of that time yet are ranked at the same time I am (this doesn't bother me) but suffice it to say that in the last 2 years I have squeezed the same amount of training in that many do in 4 years. I volunteer at my dojo to assist the beginners in instruction and I referee in kumite a couple times per month. None of this bothers me because I consider the knowledge I gain more important than the belt I wear. I have sparred many "black belts" that were not very good and a belt is only used to hold the gi closed. This is not one of those "belt seeking" posts.

Here is what I have a question about:

I have been to several tournaments where 17-18 year old "black belts" are judges. There was even a 15 year old "nidan" and a 18 year old "san dan" at the last tournament. I have run into many TKD practitioners who received their blackbelt in 4 years. In my case I have trained for 4 years, probably the equivalent of 5-6 years, and simply because I am a 4th Kyu they will not accept my help at a tournament. I am 33 years old, and I cannot register for referee training because I am not a black belt.

I understand restricting referee duties to people with experience, but to date I have seen many bad calls by inexperienced child "black belts" when there are adults more than willing to sit in as judges. Why restrict referees to "black belts only" when the requirements for a black belt are not uniform. I could literally buy a black belt over the internet and slap it on.

P.S.

I don't want a black belt BTW. I would be happy being a 1st kyu my whole life.

[cathal]

You bring up a few good talking points here, and thank you for doing so; this type of discussion goes on a lot more than you think between MA practitioners that I have known in my life. The first thing I suggest you do is speak about your thoughts to your sensei and express yourself as diplomatically as you can so that you can learn from his/her experience in these matters. It is a cause for regret if you do not speak with the sensei as many I have seen not speak just move on away from the dojo.

This is also where some organizations can split up and yet again we have another organization coming into play. The politics involved in such situations can be strenuous at best.

One thing to consider, though, is who is making the decisions. If the master is deciding that the younger karateka are doing well enough to get to the levels they are at, then you must respect that decision. If you disagree please speak with your sensei on this as well. In my own opinion I find it a bit odd that you'd have such young karateka at Nidan and Sandan but each organization (see above) can have very different philosophies about ranking.

If you take issue with a judgement call I suggest you speak with your sensei so they can speak with the head judge of that competition so the call can be discussed in greater detail. Think of it as a training opportunity for those judges rather than being malicious about "reporting" them for discipline.

Something to think about yourself is that you've repeatedly mentioned that rank doesn't matter. I also respect this, and you're main concern seems to be related to ability and life experience. Approach this with great respect and reserve and I think you will learn a lot, participate in some good discussions (and perhaps debates) and help some of the younger judges to learn to better themselves if they make errors.

.

[Killer Miller]

I think it would depend on the level of judging. If you were judging a lower or equal rank than you, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. To judge a higher rank than you, then I would have issue with it.

To achieve the rank of Black Belt does mean something. And until you traing and test for that level, you "are not" a black belt in my eyes. Therefore, you don't meet black belt requirements in terms of knowlege or technique.

Saying the above, that does not mean that you are not capable, or that you haven't put in the time as a black belt, nor does this mean that there are not black belts out there that do not deserve their rank. However, there are still many black belts that do qualify and do deserve their ranks that are better than you technically and they would be offended by a "non-black belt" judging them in a tournament. If I entered a tournament and there was a non-black belt judging me, I would have a great deal of issue with it. Also, if I saw unqualified Black Belts sitting there as judges, I would also have a great deal of issue with that as well.

My 2 cents...

- Killer -

[mudansha]

You bring up a few good talking points here, and thank you for doing so; this type of discussion goes on a lot more than you think between MA practitioners that I have known in my life. The first thing I suggest you do is speak about your thoughts to your sensei and express yourself as diplomatically as you can so that you can learn from his/her experience in these matters. It is a cause for regret if you do not speak with the sensei as many I have seen not speak just move on away from the dojo.

This is also where some organizations can split up and yet again we have another organization coming into play. The politics involved in such situations can be strenuous at best.

One thing to consider, though, is who is making the decisions. If the master is deciding that the younger karateka are doing well enough to get to the levels they are at, then you must respect that decision. If you disagree please speak with your sensei on this as well. In my own opinion I find it a bit odd that you'd have such young karateka at Nidan and Sandan but each organization (see above) can have very different philosophies about ranking.

If you take issue with a judgement call I suggest you speak with your sensei so they can speak with the head judge of that competition so the call can be discussed in greater detail. Think of it as a training opportunity for those judges rather than being malicious about "reporting" them for discipline.

Something to think about yourself is that you've repeatedly mentioned that rank doesn't matter. I also respect this, and you're main concern seems to be related to ability and life experience. Approach this with great respect and reserve and I think you will learn a lot, participate in some good discussions (and perhaps debates) and help some of the younger judges to learn to better themselves if they make errors.

.

I have talked to my sensei about it and he agrees. It is not so much our dojo. Our sensei will not give a black belt to anyone younger than 16. He will give a youth black belt that is black with a white stripe in the middle and then requires them to re-test for a full black belt at 16 but that is very rare. He has only given out 2 youth black belts in 5 years and only 2 full black belts under 18. He has given 3 nidans and only 2 sandans in 10 years and those were to instructors. He is distgusted when he goes to these tournaments and sees 15 year old black belts.

I think it would depend on the level of judging. If you were judging a lower or equal rank than you, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. To judge a higher rank than you, then I would have issue with it.

To achieve the rank of Black Belt does mean something. And until you traing and test for that level, you "are not" a black belt in my eyes. Therefore, you don't meet black belt requirements in terms of knowlege or technique.

You are assuming that the belt represents the skill or the efforts achieved. These tournaments are smaller, local tournaments. Recently two of our 5th kyu karatekas had no one in their division to compete with. Rather than take the automatic 1st, they opted to compete in their respective black belt divisions. One took first in Kata and Kumite, the other took first in kumite, second in kata. It caused a problem because the tournament was forced to let them compete for the grand championship as a 5th kyu.

Saying the above, that does not mean that you are not capable, or that you haven't put in the time as a black belt, nor does this mean that there are not black belts out there that do not deserve their rank. However, there are still many black belts that do qualify and do deserve their ranks that are better than you technically and they would be offended by a "non-black belt" judging them in a tournament. If I entered a tournament and there was a non-black belt judging me, I would have a great deal of issue with it. Also, if I saw unqualified Black Belts sitting there as judges, I would also have a great deal of issue with that as well.

I have two issues with that theory:

1) Some dojos give a black belt in 3 years; others it takes 6. Who would be more skilled: a black belt with 3 years experience or a brown belt with 5 years experience?

2) The skills of a martial artist are not necessarily the skills of a good referee. Visual acuity, judgment, confidence, knowledge of the rules are what makes a good judge. It is certainly possible to become a good judge without ever stepping foot in a dojo. Look at many other sports. Football, baseball, et cetera are full of good referees that never played professionally. How is karate any different?

[Killer Miller]

Most non-black belts whether capable or not - are still "non-black belts," regardless of their time in training. If someone has not passed the test to ensure they have learned all that is required to be certified as a black belt, then they are not a black belt.

I've seen too many brown belts and below that think they are a black belt level - but until they pass that test, they are not. And realistically, they are not black belts - close, but their technique is not there yet.

Secondly, to allow a non-black belt be a judge, regardless of the turn out, is still not right. Should a tournament director or organization lower their standards just because of a lack of attendance? Personally, I think not...

The third issue with all of this, which is a major issue of all MA are practioners that have been awarded black belts that don't deserve their black belt. This is where and why standards have been attempted to be established. But it's been a long battle on this topic and will be a long battle for a long time to come as well. This is a totally separate issue as to whether a black belt should judge or not - if they are a black belt with some sort of judging certificate, then they should be allowed to judge. Those that don't qualify, shouldn't be allowed to judge.

- Killer -

[still kicking]

I'm more with mudansha on this one, except that I don't think that non black belts should judge. Our school also has a very long path to black belt -- normally it takes 8 to 10 years. It disgusts me when I hear about how many black belts are handed out so easily. For example, I was seeing a chiropractor the other day (tweaked my back a little bit, in karate, of course), and when I told her that I trained in karate she proceeded to tell me about her nephew, who was a black belt in tae kwan do. She said that he had a lot of health problems, and attention deficit disorder, and that he was a skinny 11 year old kid. He had been training for less than 4 years, and barely had the upper body strength to go across the floor in the "wheelbarrow" thing, yet he had been given a black belt! I wanted to snort with derision, but held my tongue. When I think what we have to go through for a black belt!

This is an old story. How our school deals with it as far as tournaments, there are only 2 we go to regionally, though some people occasionally travel. The ones we go to are traditional karate, and all of the schools have reasonably high standards for promotion. They all require that the judges be trained, and I believe certified, as judges. Not just any old black belt can judge, and there certainly aren't any little kid 3 year black belts running around judging. Jeesh! You have to just stick with schools that have similar philosophies about what rank means, I think. Just my 2 cents worth.

[cathal]

I have talked to my sensei about it and he agrees. It is not so much our dojo. Our sensei will not give a black belt to anyone younger than 16. He will give a youth black belt that is black with a white stripe in the middle and then requires them to re-test for a full black belt at 16 but that is very rare. He has only given out 2 youth black belts in 5 years and only 2 full black belts under 18. He has given 3 nidans and only 2 sandans in 10 years and those were to instructors. He is distgusted when he goes to these tournaments and sees 15 year old black belts.

Do you know if your sensei has brought these concerns to the organization you are affiliated with? I'm curious to know if they're indifferent or not. Oh and I was wondering if the youth black belts also judge the adults and senior competitors?

normally it takes 8 to 10 years. It disgusts me when I hear about how many black belts are handed out so easily.

I'd say that there are a lot of different philosophies on just exactly what a black belt is. Some like your dojo take it quite seriously, and that isn't bad. Others I have seen have faster paths to black belts because they feel real learning begins at the black belt level. One cannot judge another style purely on their own philosophy, but merely respect and tolerate it. IMHO.

.

[still kicking]

cathal wrote:

One cannot judge another style purely on their own philosophy, but merely respect and tolerate it. IMHO.

I think that's true, but on the other hand it gets crazy when you are trying to have competitions, when you are mixing apples and oranges, so to speak. I know in my iaido class there are many nidans, sandans, and yondans, and a few higher, and shodan is really not really such a big thing. In my karate school, on the other hand, there are only a few black belts, and it is a much bigger achievement. But these are totally different arts. I don't know the answer, I doubt that there is one, but actually I think the problem is that Americans in particular seem too obsessed with pride in rank. Maybe it's that way in some other places, too, I don't know, but from some of the other postings on this board I recall some people saying that in Asian countries it is different. I sometimes wish everyone would just shut up about rank and train, but I know I am guilty of the same thing. My hunch is that there is something particular to American culture, with our focus on individual success and achievement in comparison to others, that in many European and Asian cultures is not so prevalent. I think it really gets in the way.

[mudansha]

Do you know if your sensei has brought these concerns to the organization you are affiliated with? I'm curious to know if they're indifferent or not. Oh and I was wondering if the youth black belts also judge the adults and senior competitors?

We are affiliated with an open organization. It is the United States Karate Alliance. It is not really practical to have a uniform grading standard because there are all kinds of martial arts affiliated with the organization. Instructors are free to assign whatever requirements and whatever belts they see fit.

In dojo matches, all students get judging experience. In USKA tournaments, only black belts are allowed to judge. Because my sensei assigns them a Jr. Black belt, they would not be allowed to judge like a full black belt. Other schools do not have this concept of "JR. black belt". They are giving out black belts to everyone. The last Kumite match I was in, the center judge was a 15 year old girl.

I'd say that there are a lot of different philosophies on just exactly what a black belt is. Some like your dojo take it quite seriously, and that isn't bad. Others I have seen have faster paths to black belts because they feel real learning begins at the black belt level. One cannot judge another style purely on their own philosophy, but merely respect and tolerate it. IMHO.

This is precisely why they should have separate standards for judging. Just because one is good at karate does not make him a good judge, and just because someone is poor at karate, does not make him a bad judge. Until requirements for black belts are uniform, (they will never be), then there should be a separate qualification program for referees.

[isshinryu5toforever]

You seem to speculate that age makes someone a proper black belt as well as ability. I do understand that there are many child black belts walking around out there that have no business being black belts at all. They barely know the curriculum, and couldn't defend themselves from someone their own age. There are however, in rare cases, those who are of what most people would consider black belt level at a younger age than most.

Ernie Reyes Jr. comes to mind. His father did make him wait to become an official black belt, but it was plain to most that he was more than qualified at a very young age. There are high school Taekwondo athletes in Korea that are 15, 2nd or 3rd degree black belts, and winning national championships and full scholarships to universities. They are certainly not the rule, but to say that all young black belts are undeserving is very harsh in my opinion. To put quotes around someone's rank simply because of their age is a being too judgmental.

We've had the discussion on what makes a black belt a few times, and it always comes down to what the instructor sees in the person. People are black belts, because the person teaching them martial arts has seen something in them, maybe improvement, maybe spirit, will, or physical prowess, that makes them deserving. That's a separate issue from judging.

As far as judging is concerned, I do understand the reason they want judges to be black belt level or above. It's consistent with the tradition that seniors judge juniors, never the other way around. Also, in an association like the ISKA or USKA where tournaments cover many styles, someone who has an extremely solid foundation in the basics can judge forms from another style. They expect those judges to know what solid kicks, punches, and stances look like. I can understand your frustration at smaller tournaments, we've all seen it, but that's part of the game.