Time in grade

[Vierna]

^ yeah, that is OK....

[bushido_man96]

Also, something else to think about when we talk about grades (more pertaining to dan grade maybe) is the fact that when many of the first wave of Japanese instructors came over to Europe / US, their grades were often "enhanced" by the association / master whose teachings they were attempting to propagate.

I have heard on a number of occasions about instructors who left the shores of Japan as 1st/2nd dans only to arrive in the UK as 4th dans!

But thats marketing I suppose.

WNM

And the funny thing is that it appears more and more that people want to blame the Americans for these kinds of things, when it appears to have started with the very Easterners that brought it to us!

As far as time in grade goes, it will vary from art to art, and school to school. Anywhere from 3 to 5 years appears to be a norm. I think I might have gotten my first dan in TKD in around 2 years, but there weren't any "forms applications" to pick out.

Now, if you look at BJJ, it can take an average of 10 years to make it to 1st dan. It all just depends.

Holding high ranks from testing for a fear of losing students, isn't a very good policy. But, some students do sign up with a goal of earning a black belt, and then feel that there isn't anymore to do. Here is when the instructor needs to show that there is more to it after obtain this rank.

[still kicking]

emjay, quoting Rorion Gracie (?)

"A belt covers about 10% of your , covering the rest is up to you."

Perfect!

Truestar says:

Forcing a person to sit at a rank is just silly. If they meet the physical requirements, and know the material and are able to pass it on, then holding anyone from rank for a time "issue" is business, not Martial Arts.

 

Maybe they are not just sitting there, maybe they are ripening.

[Truestar]

I think it's the teachers job to develop the student as they go through their training. If there's 12 techniques for the rank, really focus and develop each one so when the time comes they don't need to just sit at the rank.

If I had 12 techniques to teach a student I would ensure they understand as many applications to it, the counters, to pros, cons, and levels of force with it. I would also have them play with it in different situations. Once they have a good understanding then move onto the new technique. The whole ripening deal should occur while learning, so once all 12 techniques are learned and learned well, they are ready to move on.

Now, say you have someone a level below their 1st dan. They excel at the physical requirements, understand the mechanics and can apply them. Literally as close to perfect as they can, but they are a social wreck and have trouble mentally and emotionally. Then ripening would take "time".

I think it also depends on what "time" it is. I was looking at an Aikido club in my area. I believe from 6th kyu to 5th kyu it's like 30 days of training and 60 days since the last test. That's kind of silly to set standards like that. If you are going to "ripen", it shouldn't be a concrete time frame, it should be to whoever is their primary instructor as far as discretion.

I guess when I hear "time in grade" I think of these things where schools set solid times between tests or belts. This is the sign for money.

Now, if your instructor thinks you aren't ready, then inquire and work on it. Assuming they aren't milking your wallet of course.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Also, something else to think about when we talk about grades (more pertaining to dan grade maybe) is the fact that when many of the first wave of Japanese instructors came over to Europe / US, their grades were often "enhanced" by the association / master whose teachings they were attempting to propagate.

I have heard on a number of occasions about instructors who left the shores of Japan as 1st/2nd dans only to arrive in the UK as 4th dans!

But thats marketing I suppose.

WNM

And the funny thing is that it appears more and more that people want to blame the Americans for these kinds of things, when it appears to have started with the very Easterners that brought it to us!

As far as the grade inflation in the old days, it's partially because back then, they didn't really care about rank nor did they put much weight on it. These days, at least in Korea, until you hit around 3rd or 4th dan, no one cares about you unless you're a major competitor. Chodan here is like, ok, you took Taekwondo for 2 years when you were a kid, learned the basics, learned the poomse through Koryo, good for you. You don't know anything yet. OR, they give chodan to a foreigner after one year, because they think it'll make them happy, and they'll pay money for it.

When we talk about higher dans, which I don't every plan on becoming (8th, 9th, 10th), it's all political. Who did you study under? Did they like you? Did they have demanding sons? Do you want to run an organization? Do you want to create your own organization? All that jazz. Too much for me.

[still kicking]

Truestar, I guess I don't understand your concern about money. The issue of ranking, time to shodan, and all that, can take up many words. The funny thing is that some people on here say that promoting people too fast can be all about money, and that some schools promote people quickly so they will be happy and stick around. It sounds like you are taking the opposite view, i.e. that keeping people at ranks longer is a way to keep them around. Are you saying that the assumption is that people will leave after they reach shodan? Anyway, if you read some of my previous posts you can see that I have had plenty of gripes about thinking I have been held too long at a rank, when it seemed to me and other objective observers that my skills were higher than some of those above me. Be that as it may, I never thought it was about the money, just my teacher's perfectionism. The thing is, I would and will happily pay my $85/month dues on an ongoing basis. Regardless if I am 10th kyu or san kyu or shodan or some higher dan, the $85 provides me with the option of training 1 1/2 hours a night 4 nights a week, plus Saturday mornings, plus an extra advanced training one Friday night a month, with a highly congenial group of people, and with a teacher of high skill and integrity, I believe. This is less than the cost of one hour with a highly skilled mental health therapist, and believe me, it takes its place. It seems to me that the issue might be whether you trust your teacher's motives. (?)

[bushido_man96]

I think it also depends on what "time" it is. I was looking at an Aikido club in my area. I believe from 6th kyu to 5th kyu it's like 30 days of training and 60 days since the last test. That's kind of silly to set standards like that. If you are going to "ripen", it shouldn't be a concrete time frame, it should be to whoever is their primary instructor as far as discretion.

I guess when I hear "time in grade" I think of these things where schools set solid times between tests or belts. This is the sign for money.

It isn't always about money. The Aikido club I attend is not-for-profit, and I pay no dues to attend. I do pay for testings, but that is because I want to gain rank through the association, otherwise, I wouldn't have to. This club also has a layout of hours of practice required for each rank in order to test, and time-in-rank requirements.

Now, just because someone has met the time requirements, doesn't mean that they are ready to test. This is the where the instructor steps in, and decides if the student is prepared for the test or not. So, even though some time frame may be layed out, that doesn't mean that it is set in stone.

[Vierna]

Are you saying that the assumption is that people will leave after they reach shodan?

I know a few people that did that and some that still havent reached Shodan but have said to me or my friends that they will stop training when they reach black belt....

[Truestar]

I have no question on any of my teachers motives.

And it all depends on your school, it's hard to know who's legitimate and who is holding back a student so they get more of the monthly fee. Both schools I currently train at do not require a fee for any tests until black belt, so that may offer a reason to why my judgment is a little different.

[whess]

at the dojo i practice at if get tested when you know what your supposed to know well enough. Typically a student will get black belt in about 3 years if they show up regularly