Punches: Recoil vs. Follow Through

[tallgeese]

Strikes need to snap out there to deliver kinetic energy to the target. The rub is, the target needs to be visualized through the target, not at it's surface. You can beat up the surface of someone all day and not hurt anything structurally enough to do damage or stop their aggression.

I like to use focus mitt drills for this sort of thing. Punches should be snappy and return directly along their original flight path, but they shouldn't hit the mitts, they should strike through them, pressing force into the hands and skeletal structure of the holder.

[joesteph]

Strikes need to snap out there to deliver kinetic energy to the target. The rub is, the target needs to be visualized through the target, not at it's surface. . . .

Punches should be snappy and . . . they should strike through . . .

Isn't the rule of thumb about two inches for a punch, Tallgeese? I think it may be something like four inches for a kick; four inches for a punch strikes me as more of a push action.

[ps1]

When it comes to this type of study I would rather see it conducted by non-martial artists. There are just too many biases. The participants should be experts in there respective type of punch (pro-boxers throwing boxing punches, Karateka throwing karate punches and so on). The heights and weights of the participants should be nearly identical. Everything should be totally controlled from stance to angle of the punch to exactly what will hit the target and where. There should be hundreds upon thousands of participants (There are certainly enough martial artists out there).

IMO...these types of studies should be conducted by car companies. They have the instrumentation and complete understanding of the differences between force transmitted...kinetic energy transmitted...impact delivered...and how those things cause damage to the human body. Too many people get those things all mismashed and don't even realize they are different.

Until I see this...I will never likely take these studies seriously.

[Kuma]

I think the main difference between the two is how you utilize your koshi, or hip action.

By turning with the strike you are doing more of a follow through kind of strike, even though the general rule of thumb is to snap the fist back to your regular fighting position right after impact.

However, you can do a counter rotation of the hips which naturally adds more "snap" to what you're doing. You turn normally with the strike, but in the last instance before striking you turn the hips AWAY from where you're striking at, creating a more whip-like motion.

For a more visual idea, compare the two different Naihanchi kata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Y_Lpf985c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE

[ps1]

I think the main difference between the two is how you utilize your koshi, or hip action.

In a good study...this is something that would be totally controlled. Either by having each participant use the same hip action or no hip action at all. But you're right...it would certainly make a difference.

[joesteph]

I think the main difference between the two is how you utilize your koshi, or hip action. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE

That was a really rapid--and a really body-twisting--hip movement from about 2:45 to 3:03. His firing off the snapping shot and snapping his body/hips back with the recoiling punch is unreal.

[bushido_man96]

I understand some of the concerns dealing with the study, but I do think that a study like this does have some merit. I would like to see the study expanded, and done with more practitioners from various disciplines, and in a controlled setting with a group of non-practitioners, as well. Establishing a control group would help in moving towards less biases, and more understanding.

By the way, thanks to Kuma for giving me another book idea, and thanks to Joe for finding me another free online MA mag... I appreciate it!

[Kuma]

I think the main difference between the two is how you utilize your koshi, or hip action. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DEVYxsihlE

That was a really rapid--and a really body-twisting--hip movement from about 2:45 to 3:03. His firing off the snapping shot and snapping his body/hips back with the recoiling punch is unreal.

Shinzato Sensei is absolutely amazing. He's the one who gave my sensei Yuki his sandan in Shorin Ryu and to whom Yuki credits a lot of his power. I hope I can even do half of what Shinzato Sensei does with his koshi someday.

[sensei8]

Recoil and follow through COMPLIMENT one another.

While the follow through appears to be the end of said punch/strike/block; it's only the BEGINNING of the recoil.

The Shindokan methodology is this:

1. Start/Ready

2. Out

3. Back/Recoil

4. End/Ready

No matter the strike, punch, and/or block, these 4 steps must be executed! Shindokan practitioners believe that any strike, punch, block, that doesn't "recoil" is nothing more than a push!

The Shindokan methodology of a kick:

1. Up

2. Out

3. Back/Recoil

4. Down

Without 'Back' then, again, it's nothing more than a push!

No recoil steals the "shocking" aspect of the given waza, in Shindokan's methodology. Yes, the "Out" is like a sledgehammer, but, a "Back/Recoil" is like a sledgehammer being attached to a chain, the latter will hurt more than the former.

[tonydee]

I'm struggling with the "sledgehammer on a chain" pull-back idea. I just can't see how an extra requirement to be able to reverse direction suddenly at the end of a technique can increase the strength/explosiveness of the forwards movement. Again, I think it's psychological: the anticipation of needing to pull back encourages a snappier punch, a tendency to speed up the striking contractions. Still, I think snap or push can exist in the forwards movement anyway, it's more about the explosiveness of that motion, independent of the recoil. Thinking about breaking boards, I don't pull back afterwards: I hit straight through them and leave my arm out, and even when I'd just got 1st dan (1991) I could break three 300x300x18mm pine boards hanging loosely from someone's fingertips with a reverse punch (unsupported boards take a lot more 'snap' to break), and - in hindsight - I didn't even have good hip mechanics back then....