Which Forms?

[bushido_man96]

Not only in those excesses, but in all ways and at all levels, I believe the ITF patterns are fundamentally flawed, not ever reaching the core requirement of optimally encouraging good habits for body mechanics and self defence. It's been eating at me more and more over the years, but I haven't yet done the hard yards to work out systematically what exactly's missing, or studied alternatives such as the karate kata or specific grandmaster's formulations to see how they measure up in comparison. I'd be interested to hear if anyone's been through a similar process and come out the other side, but perhaps that belongs in a separate thread.

Tony, if you are looking for a different perpective to approach the ITF patterns from, check out Stuart Pual Anslow's book Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul - Real Applications to the ITF Patterns: Vol 1: http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248412649&sr=1-1

It might give you a different take on the patterns. It only covers up to Toi Gye hyung, but I think the author intends to add a second volume in the future (I hope so, anyways).

[tonydee]

...Many of the flashy things in the patterns - like spinning slowly with your leg raised high in the air - are of no real relevance, but people go to a lot of effort to master them instead of concentrating on a good punch or forearm block.

I do think it has some use. In order to do it you have to have a strong core, very good sense of balance, and strength in the leg, not to mention you have to be able to pivot properly and demonstrate correct part of the foot used. In the case of Juche (or Kodang which its also now called) I was told it was brought in to make it much more difficult to get to 3rd dan and to keep the standard high. Moon Moo for a similar reason. My instructor actually taught us the first section of Moon Moo as a strength exercise, try doing it with ankle weights on and it absolutely kills the legs.

All true in a way, but it's a bit like schools that require their black belt candidates to run a marathon in a specific time before applying. Sure, it's a great experience and will help them with the psychology of goal setting, determination, fitness etc., but should it be mandated in a curriculum? To those who say "sure, it's a great idea", how about adding basic gymnastic routines and XMA moves? Wouldn't hurt to have all your 3rd dans able to do that too.... Or walk a tight rope... Do backflips juggling knives.... I personally think the training to lift your leg and pivot in that fashion doesn't improve the fighting ability significantly. I can do it, and it wasn't something I had to put any significant effort into, but I wouldn't care whether my peers can do it or not. I would prefer some differentiator from 1st dan that was more relevant to self defense ability, as that's the core benchmark of ability in the arts. Perhaps this is where breaking is useful... as difficult breaking requirements do prevent those without good mechanics from progressing inappropriately high. For that, it's important to forego techniques that only require brute use of body weight (e.g. downward stomp kick), and test for power and coordination (e.g. punching several boards without spacers, suspended from a string).

I think we all realize that forms were developed by conscientious people who had a particular plan/series of training steps in mind.

To various extents, yes. Though, I believe the main motivation for the ITF forms was anti-Japanese sentiment, a distancing from the Japanese/Okinawan roots of taekwondo. Though I think the forms are reasonable, and am glad to have learnt them, it's hard not to wonder what treasures the Okinawan kata hold with the centuries of experience and many masters who've contributed....

Tony, if you are looking for a different perpective to approach the ITF patterns from, check out Stuart Pual Anslow's book Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul - Real Applications to the ITF Patterns: Vol 1: http://www.amazon.com/Chang-Hon-Taekwon-do-Hae-Sul/dp/1906628041/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248412649&sr=1-1

It might give you a different take on the patterns. It only covers up to Toi Gye hyung, but I think the author intends to add a second volume in the future (I hope so, anyways).

Thanks for the recommendation. Already been interesting just checking up on Mr Anslow, whom I hadn't heard of before. Curiously, he doesn't believe the ITF taekwondo patterns were designed to incorporate the applications his book lists. Rather, the kata Funakoshi taught may have contained such applications - unknown even to him as he hadn't completed his training as a bodyguard to the Okinawan king - and some of the combinations survived the pillaging by which movements were incorporated into the Chang Hon forms. So, in a way, I'd be more interested to get a good book on some of the better preserved Okinawan styles, and see things in their proper context, but having put so much into ITF patterns already it'd be crazy not to hear Anslow's conclusions too. I have a couple other things to order from Amazon shortly, will add this in....

Thanks and regards,

Tony

[bushido_man96]

You could also look into Iain Abernethy's website for ideas on the use of bunkai from Karate katas: http://www.iainabernethy.com/

He has several books on the subject of applications from Karate katas, and it may work as "the missing link" to what Anslow discusses and demonstrates in his book.

[Aodhan]

There is no hard and fast rule for testing. My GF is testing after 2 months and a week (or something like that) but she takes 2 hour classes 3-4 days per week and we train before class every day, so she's picking it up quickly.

I'm thinking their average time is probably about 3-4 months at 2-3 classes per week.

Even in 3-4 months, internalizing 7 forms is pretty difficult. Sure, you could learn the moves, but to actually do the form as it is intended and have someone SEE it as being a sequence of defensive/offensive moves against opponents is hard to pull off when learning 1 form every two months.

John

[DWx]

All true in a way, but it's a bit like schools that require their black belt candidates to run a marathon in a specific time before applying. Sure, it's a great experience and will help them with the psychology of goal setting, determination, fitness etc., but should it be mandated in a curriculum? To those who say "sure, it's a great idea", how about adding basic gymnastic routines and XMA moves? Wouldn't hurt to have all your 3rd dans able to do that too.... Or walk a tight rope... Do backflips juggling knives.... I personally think the training to lift your leg and pivot in that fashion doesn't improve the fighting ability significantly. I can do it, and it wasn't something I had to put any significant effort into, but I wouldn't care whether my peers can do it or not. I would prefer some differentiator from 1st dan that was more relevant to self defense ability, as that's the core benchmark of ability in the arts. Perhaps this is where breaking is useful... as difficult breaking requirements do prevent those without good mechanics from progressing inappropriately high. For that, it's important to forego techniques that only require brute use of body weight (e.g. downward stomp kick), and test for power and coordination (e.g. punching several boards without spacers, suspended from a string).

All valid points. I myself find it very difficult to do that kick slow and so I've had to work a lot on my flexibility and strength and I've definitely noticed an improvement in other areas of training. In sparring for example the added flexibility is an obvious bonus but I also feel I have a lot more control over the leg. I guess its down to what you expect from your TKD (or any martial art) and what you expect from your students.

With regards to Mr Anslow, If don't want/can't wait for the book, he publishes excerpts in his magazine, TotallyTKD. There is also another regular feature in there looking at some of the applications of the patterns but I can't remember who writes it. I think its called "What's the point?" or something like that. There's also this guy I came across on Youtube a while back that looks at the forms from a more practical and Karate perspective.

[bushido_man96]

That one looks like a good read, too. I may have to break down and buy it.

[manuelito]

interesting. i find it difficult to believe that a beginner could perform this amount of sequenced moves correctly (understanding standards are lower for this level) imo that in a span of 6 months 2-3 forms is plenty to keep ths mind nd body busy. how many moves are in each form? i just realized that you may be doing really short forms. 20-30 moves per form is typical for this level i would think.

[CTTKDKing]

My school is predominately WTF so for our color belts we practice the Tae Guk forms, but once we reach black belt we learn the Pal Guay forms as well (and Koryo as well as the other black belt forms).

[bushido_man96]

I wondered if some schools still used the Pal Gwe's, or if most had just moved onto the Tae Guk's. That seems to be the trends. When my dad first started, many years ago, he did the old Pal Gwe forms.

[hammer]

We do the Chang Hon forms plus one additional form, Kodang. We're not an ITF school and we do the forms a little differently...some techniques are different and we don't do sine wave.

I've been to clinics on all of them except Juche...was keeping up and learning the basics until I reached So San. Proficiency is another matter...I've had some days where I am embarrassed by my Chon-Ji.