Which Forms?

[storyteller]

Hey all, it's been about a million years since I posted anything, so I'm really sorry if this has been posted recently:

Which forms are part of your curriculum?

I ask because I had studied both ITF and WTF as a kid, then studied TSD/Shotokan forms in college and the (TKD) school I've just joined does them all. That's Gen. Choi's, Palgwe, Tae Guek and TSD series. There are 7 forms required for their white to yellow belt test alone. I had never heard of learning this many forms per level before.

Personally, I'm pretty stoked about it because forms have always been my strong suit, but still, wow...does anyone else learn this many?

[Truestar]

Wow, I'm not sure forms should be that important for white to yellow. Seems like a bit much in my opinion.

We stick with ITF forms in our school.

[DWx]

7 forms from white to yellow belt? Sounds a bit overkill. How long before you're allowed to test for yellow? I can't imagine trying to learn 7 forms in the standard 3-6 months period.

I'm ITF so we do their forms.

[bushido_man96]

Hello, and welcome back to KF.

I have worked out at a school in the past that required the ITF and the WTF forms, one for each rank, but that is the most that I have seen. The school I am a part of right now does only the ITF forms, but not all 24.

[twistkick kid]

The school I've been training with does only ITF forms, but not all 24. We do Chon-Ji, Do-San, Yul-Gak, Hwa-Rang, Chong-Moo with the coloured belts. Black belts start with Kwang-Gae, then progress through Po-Eun, Gae-Baek, Ul-Ji. After third degree, we can choose to learn whichever forms we want.

[storyteller]

There is no hard and fast rule for testing. My GF is testing after 2 months and a week (or something like that) but she takes 2 hour classes 3-4 days per week and we train before class every day, so she's picking it up quickly.

I'm thinking their average time is probably about 3-4 months at 2-3 classes per week.

[tonydee]

Which forms are part of your curriculum?

I ask because I had studied both ITF and WTF as a kid, then studied TSD/Shotokan forms in college and the (TKD) school I've just joined does them all. That's Gen. Choi's, Palgwe, Tae Guek and TSD series. There are 7 forms required for their white to yellow belt test alone. I had never heard of learning this many forms per level before.

Personally, I'm pretty stoked about it because forms have always been my strong suit, but still, wow...does anyone else learn this many?

I practice only the ITF hyung, though I would like to learn some traditional karate kata. I personally think 7 forms is too many... after 23 years in training, I realise how important it is to repeat the simplest movements until all the various levels of realisation about the mechanics and concepts reveal themselves. Many of the flashy things in the patterns - like spinning slowly with your leg raised high in the air - are of no real relevance, but people go to a lot of effort to master them instead of concentrating on a good punch or forearm block.

Not only in those excesses, but in all ways and at all levels, I believe the ITF patterns are fundamentally flawed, not ever reaching the core requirement of optimally encouraging good habits for body mechanics and self defence. It's been eating at me more and more over the years, but I haven't yet done the hard yards to work out systematically what exactly's missing, or studied alternatives such as the karate kata or specific grandmaster's formulations to see how they measure up in comparison. I'd be interested to hear if anyone's been through a similar process and come out the other side, but perhaps that belongs in a separate thread.

So, at least learning more patterns should give you a chance to work out which ones to put more time into, which might still work out better than being stuck with a set of mediocre patterns....

Cheers,

Tony

[DWx]

...Many of the flashy things in the patterns - like spinning slowly with your leg raised high in the air - are of no real relevance, but people go to a lot of effort to master them instead of concentrating on a good punch or forearm block.

I do think it has some use. In order to do it you have to have a strong core, very good sense of balance, and strength in the leg, not to mention you have to be able to pivot properly and demonstrate correct part of the foot used. In the case of Juche (or Kodang which its also now called) I was told it was brought in to make it much more difficult to get to 3rd dan and to keep the standard high. Moon Moo for a similar reason. My instructor actually taught us the first section of Moon Moo as a strength exercise, try doing it with ankle weights on and it absolutely kills the legs.

[ninjanurse]

WTF here.

[joesteph]

There are 7 forms required for their white to yellow belt test alone. I had never heard of learning this many forms per level before.

This may be a case of refusing to let older forms go (historical) while recognizing the importance of ones developed over the years.

In Soo Bahk Do, I found out that the organization is pruning the older forms for rank advancement, while retaining newer ones. Often, a newer form may reflect what was in an older form and give an additional (modernized? contemporary?) spin on things. I did learn that some forms that were once required for gup advancement have been moved to dan level requirements, probably reflecting the higher level of "art" and history once someone has reached that level.

I personally think 7 forms is too many... after 23 years in training, I realise how important it is to repeat the simplest movements until all the various levels of realisation about the mechanics and concepts reveal themselves.

It really does seem like overkill when required all at once, especially if you have all those forms but little time for understanding (let alone practicing) applications within them.

[but] learning more patterns should give you a chance to work out which ones to put more time into, which might still work out better than being stuck with a set of mediocre patterns....

If a reason is given for learning a particular form, especially at dan level as DWx points out, they become more important and better appreciated.

I think we all realize that forms were developed by conscientious people who had a particular plan/series of training steps in mind. But, as Storyteller's question can be interpreted, what is, and where do we find, the saturation point?