Kyokushin for self defense?

[patio87]

How effective is Kyokushin as a self defense? I mean there is no face striking in Kumite. Does that mean that there is no training for face defense/strikes in a real fight in Kyokushin?

Right now I'm trying to decide between two dojo's. One is Shotokan and is a real Karate dojo that trains hard, but it looks like it is very much based on tournament training. The other Dojo is Miura Dojo, which is KyokushinKai under Sensei Shihan Miura.

So I'm looking for some help from you guys, I really want to learn Kyokushin, but it worries me that without much training for face striking/defense it seems like it may not be a good choice as a self defense or even fighting system.

[tonydee]

I think you expect too much... no martial art or sport practices full contact, no protective gear, and unrestricted technique. Kyokushin disallows face punching to make it relatively safe while keeping the emphasis on contact. Other contact sports might disallow eye gouging, with the techniques employed then free to leave the exponent very vulnerable to it - e.g. tackling around the waist without pinning the arms. My training has generally been non- or controlled-contact, with full power technique pulled short of contact only when it's evident the sparring partner won't block, and junior students not kicking below the belt. Other styles put on gloves or pads that radically change the power vs time vs surface-area characteristics and consequent effectiveness of particular techniques, also producing an unrealistic slant on fighting....

That said, learning to block punches to the face - even more so than throwing them - is necessary for effective self defense, just as my learning more about leg sweeps and low kicks was. I'm sure you'll know what you need to do to practice those skills when the time comes: non-contact drills and/or using gloves, with someone outside the dojo if necessary.

Learning the basic techniques, mechanics, timing, distancing, strategies and mental attitude is the bulk of the challenge.

I can't recommend the Shotokan over the Kyokushin, or vice versa, without visit the dojos. I would also be concerned by any style that focuses on tournaments, though training for the style of sparring you do internal to the school works out pretty much the same. I note Miura also picked up a 2nd dan in Shotokan in his youth, so at some level I'm sure he will have retained and integrated whatever he found useful.

Perhaps look at the style of fighting/sparring practice, and see which school's students are doing something you can relate to more, and imagine yourself doing and feeling good about....

Cheers,

Tony

[bushido_man96]

I think Tony is on a good track here. Where Shotokan will likely allow face punching in their sparring, they typically stop for a point, which becomes a bad habit as relates to self-defense, as well. So like Tony mentions, 6 in one, half-dozen in the other.

Your best bet is to go check out both of the dojos, evaluate the instructors and the classes, and then make your choice.

[tallgeese]

I second, or third, going to check out each individual school and the instructors there. Also, consider the atmosphere and your compatibility with the other students there. Look at what they are doing and evaluate it against your needs. That will be the best indicator.

The no punching to the head thing is a limitation, for sure. However, all of us deal with limitation in some way in reference to what we do on the mat. The big bonus is the emphasis on contact which cannot be understated in it's importance.

Check out both and see which seems like a better fit. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[Dobbersky]

I agree with the guys on the previous posts as I haven't had much experience of Shotokan or Kyokushin

I would recommend visiting the respective dojos and attending some "free" lessons to see what you think. The kata are similar although There is some Goju Influx into Kyokushin.

On Kyokushin - Regards punching to the face although Competitions etc do not allow face strikes, you just have to watch YouTube to see the devistating knockouts from spinning round kicks etc to the "side" of the head. Also in 2-mans face strikes are included in the syllabus. Kyokushin was formed though Sosai Oymas' experience of "Street Fights" so I am sure there was a reason for not including frontal face strikes. The K1 Champ Semmy Schiltz (who gave and received frontal face strikes) is a SeiDoKan (Kyokushin) Fighter

Shotokan's sparring is point scoring and this in NOT how it works on the street, although Shotokan Dojo's do have "Full Contact" fights with continual fighting but that's dependant on the Dojo's Instructor. Muchida (UFC Champ) is a ShotoKan fighter (although he is also a Jujitsu Black Belt too)

By the by they're both as good as each other it depends upon which suits YOUR personal needs

[emjay]

It is true that most Shoto-kan based competitions are point matches...but, in my experience, a good dojo will not train for tournament. The training will be gear towards traditional fighting for self defenseand tournament will be an after thought. If a dojo is training for tournaments as a primary means of instruction, then I am not sure if they are a dojo or a just training gym for competitions. I'm not trying to offend anyone. There is nothing wrong with competition at all. I did alot of it in my younger days, but I think it is far from what martial arts training should be about. Unless a sport (instead of a martial art) is what you want to train for, that is. If so, best of luck to you there as well.

Marc G.

[Kuma]

The main reason for no head punches in Kyokushin goes back to the formative years. Kyokushin kumite originally included face punching with bare hands. Stories float around about how some students would be in charge of collecting teeth during the matches so they could be returned to their rightful owners.

However, about this time Oyama ran into the problem that many countries had laws against illegal prizefighting (in which the idea of fighting without hand protection and allowing hand strikes was included) so he had to adapt. He could either add protective equipment to continue the strikes to the face, or he could eliminate face punching and still keep the idea of jissen kumite without protection in effect. He chose the latter. Some organizations are bringing back face punches now using the 2oz gloves you see in MMA.

I'm a Kyokushin guy and a cop, so I get in a scrap or two every now and then. Haven't seen any downsides to having Kyokushin training, only benefits, so take it for what it's worth. Not the total package, but definitely a valuable tool.

[sensei8]

Visiting other dojo's while you're on a quest is solid advice, one that I subscribe to. Just understand this...while visiting other dojo's will give you a pretty good snapshot of that style, whatever that style might be, it's something to be careful about. Why? Visiting other dojo's ALSO gives one a snapshot from the lenses of THAT instructor, not of that styles Hombu.

I'm pretty sure that Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura didn't do Kyokushin Karate exactly like Mas Oyama. Kaicho Nakamura, when he was with the Kyokushin, is/was a pretty good snapshot of Kyokushin.

[bushido_man96]

To elaborate on Sensei8's thoughts on visiting a dojo, I would try to do so without calling and setting up an appointment; just drop in. That way, you see what goes on from day to day, and not a special demonstration of what black belts might get to do.